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Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Piracy - Your argument is all well and good, but still doesn't show me a real reason
  1. #61

    Skylark's Avatar

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    Re: Piracy

    Your argument is all well and good, but still doesn't show me a real reason to advocate stealing something that isn't legally yours.

    Essentially, what I hear is this. I want to protest by not giving money to <whatever>. But I sure don't want to be inconvienced enough to not have it. So I'll just take it without paying.

    I can understand your point. So don't get the music. That would convince me. But you don't want THAT. You want it but not to pay for it? I don't get it.
    I want a car, but I don't want to pay all that money for it. Heck, it looses half it's value as you drive the new car off the lot! So buy it used. That same statement could be used for music. Granted, it won't work for computer games anymore and becoming less so for gaming consoles.

    And no, I don't know a single person who works for the music industry in any way. I just realize that it's their legal property.
    Either
    a) we need to not buy things from them until they realize the system is bad and work to change it
    b) somoene invents a better system and we all buy from that system. Then more people will copy it.

    I buy 99% of my music by the song anymore, through some website like amazon or itunes. Mainly because I don't want to the buy the whole CD a lot of the time.

    I do admit, I also have a great library system here in Johnson County, KS. They have a lot of music CDs, movies and the like. I can legally listen to them and decide if I like it enough to buy it.

    As for the burden of proof NOT being on the pirate? Try that in court. That's a cop out. I'm sorry I don't agree with your view here in the least. The only burden of proof they have it to show you did the pirating before you get fined or jailed.

    I do support one thing. I think it is a good idea that people should be able to use the stuff in creative ways easier. I see so many cool things on youtube and elsewhere that use neat music. Then later, it's muted because they didn't have permission to use that song. That does stiffly creativity. I hope that some system comes up where you can use it better. I THINK that maybe if you have some link to some place that allows purchase of the song, it's OK? No idea... pure guessing based on seeing that link on some youtube videos that have music. Get permission to use it by showing where you can buy that song. There are limits, of course. But I'm open to discussion.

    PS: By you, I'm not trying to point it at you personally, but the general sense. I usually try pretty hard not to attack. But after rereading, it seems I'm saying YOU are <whatever> all the time. Didn't mean to do that.
    "Sympathy means a lot, coming from Kulmar. I didn't think it was possible.
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  3. #62

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    Re: Piracy

    Oh I don't take things personally very quickly, no worries.

    -
    You spent a lot of time here arguing about the legality of downloading. I wholly agree with you that it is illegal. But in my previous post I tried to convince you to step
    out of that framework of the rules on paper, and into the reality of the current situation and reason about how we could adapt laws so this whole situation
    comes out better for society as a whole. The point is I think the laws need to change, there is no argument whether it is illegal or not. What I defend is the MORAL
    opinion that I can download whatever I want.

    To me it is a moral argument in a sense, where I believe that information should be allowed to be freely distributed whatever the current rules are,
    with the sole restriction that you cannot use other people's stuff for profit.

    Mind you that in principle it is illegal to show your DVD at a freind's house, or to lend them the dvd, lend them you mp3 player etc. In this topic there has
    always been a disconnect between the letter of the rule and what people actually are allowed to do. Basically, the music industry, or movie industry etc. will extort as much money as they possibly can without any concern for reasonableness.

    Do you remember casettes? Everyone used to record songs from the radio and exchange their own mix tapes with friends. The industry couldn't really control that
    at all, so they didn't sue anyone. With the digital 'casettes' though on the internet there is traceability. From the possibility flows the act of suing people.
    So the freedom internet offered us has actually DIMINISHED the freedom we had pre-cd's. The scale of information exchange
    (many many more 'casettes' are exchanged) however sure is hurting a dinosaur industry that is holding everyone back.
    Q: Do you not think that if they could, the music industry would charge you for singing a song in the shower? I bet you they would, only as I said earlier, for now they cannot realistically do it. But still, technically you are probably also breaking the law (I don't know US law that well though), but off course judges don't enforce it that way and companies do not persue that.

    ----
    I also want to comment on your car analogy. ANY analogy with stealing of actual objects is totally false imo and diverts the discussion in a disingenuous way.
    You cannot compare an actual object that takes up space and has mass, with information that can be copied (copying is in NO way equivalent to stealing)
    for the cost of a few watts of electricity, without taking any posession at all from the creator/owner.

    It is -for now- illegal copying, but it is not stealing.

    ----
    This all ties in to many other aspects of the way we deal with rights on information. The scariest of abberations here imo is the patenting of genetic code.
    I find your discourse scary and dangerous, because I believe freedom of information weighs much more than some companies that resist their factual redundancy,
    as it is normal for any organisation to do.

    If you listen to the same people you listen to about music, on the topic of the internet, you risk finding that this free internet we here all have enjoyed
    for over a decade, was just a short lived phase, replaced with a sort of 24-hour shopping channel.

    PS: Libraries? There you have one huge and important freedom, for equality, for education, that you will lose in no time if people don't wake up and demand information to be free for exchange. Look at Google books; an online free library. They have been sued from all sides, while in principle they are just offering what we have had for hundreds of years: free books.
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  5. #63

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGaayAl View Post
    Q: Do you not think that if they could, the music industry would charge you for singing a song in the shower? I bet you they would, only as I said earlier, for now they cannot realistically do it. But still, technically you are probably also breaking the law (I don't know US law that well though), but off course judges don't enforce it that way and companies do not persue that.
    Playing copyrighted music in a car with the windows down where everyone can hear is a copyright violation (performance) just like playing a radio in a business without paying a license fee.
    Playing copyrighted music in your home with the windows open is the same.
    Reselling a game is now often a copyright violation because you are 'purchasing a license' and that license limits resale. See steam for a great example.
    Copyright can be used to stifle other artists by limiting similarity although all copyrighted music is based on other music a person has heard.
    Copyright is now indefinite as it is extended whenever it expires, meaning that no matter what happens, our entire culture is copyrighted and will be completely under the control of companies indefinitely. Songs from your childhood will never be in the public domain for you to sing in the park without breaking copyright.

    Copyright as a concept is fine when applied to resellers and it is limited. The Beatles music should be in the public domain by now, it is a part of our culture and copyright covered their careers well enough for them to make multiple albums and become rich, why should they have control over "yellow submarine" after 40 years? Why can't that be freely used by anyone? That is WRONG.

    Copyright infringement is not theft. The Beatles music should be in the public domain under any reasonable system so anyone who infringes on their copyright I applaud you. They've made all their money, and if they want more they can charge for a performance, not sit on their past works that they have already turned a massive profit on. Same for Disney, once they 'put it in the vault' they are using copyright to strangle creativity and manipulate the market for movies that should be in the public domain. The Wizard of Oz should be int he public domain. Happy Birthday should be in the public domain. All of these works are iconic and deserve to be freely traded and doing so is in no way theft.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  7. #64

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    Re: Piracy

    Wow, awesome post Snoogs. Thanks for adding in all that detail. In Belgium it works somewhat differently but the basics are the same. Who makes these laws it makes me wonder? Is it our governement, or international scale bullying.


    This month some artists and Belgian/International based companies have released a press statement asking for better copyright protection and tougher copyright enforcement. In the tiny Local market that is like shooting yourself in the foot, since all youth here have grown up with illegal downloading as a given.

    And yet we have this artist, Ozark Henry, who was in a Flemish docu about copyright. He has only the Belgian market really (10 million ppl). But he is smart, and has built his own studio in his house for a few thousand euros. Because he does it all himself, and has low expenses as he doesn't pay for the ridonkulous advertising and personal like the dinosaur record companies do, he can break even after selling 7000 cd's! That is not much even on our market. This is a smart guy adapting to the new world, without resentement towards his fans who buy CD's, or come to his concerts in droves. It's like radiohead.

    In fact, I'll advertise his website: http://www.myspace.com/ozarkhenry. Like the black hole sun song.
    What it's like to play online games as a grown-up:http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-i...e_gaming/1.jpg

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    ***I will be in India 14 dec till end of januari***

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  9. #65



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    Re: Piracy

    I do buy A LOT of albums. if you saw my cd rack u would be amazed lol. from rock to reggae to hip hop to house to jazz to most popular genres. but i also have about 10K songs on my pc alone, without counting the rest on my external hard drive. I f i had bought all of those as individual songs on itunes it would be $ 9900.

    im sorry, but downloading 10K songs would be time consuming and wallet breaking. so all those DJ's in the world are wrong because they play ppls music without their consent? oh my how lame would the world be if u could only listen to your ipod in a club.

    if i like someones album, i would buy it if i could. I am not however going to buy an entire album for 1 song.
    Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers"

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  11. #66

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwalc View Post
    if i like someones album, i would buy it if i could. I am not however going to buy an entire album for 1 song.
    But we buy our government that way. We have to take everyone else's pork in order to get our own piece of pork. And we buy health care that way. We have to buy a whole medical package and can't buy ala carte without paying a huge premium. Kinda shows how you get a nice big lobbying monopoly in place to supply something and the individual gets screwed. But, hey, that's the price of living in our family-like society. (Wait, I thought I moved out of my mom and dad's house to get away from all that!)
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

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  13. #67

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    I do support one thing. I think it is a good idea that people should be able to use the stuff in creative ways easier. I see so many cool things on youtube and elsewhere that use neat music. Then later, it's muted because they didn't have permission to use that song. That does stiffly creativity. I hope that some system comes up where you can use it better. I THINK that maybe if you have some link to some place that allows purchase of the song, it's OK? No idea... pure guessing based on seeing that link on some youtube videos that have music. Get permission to use it by showing where you can buy that song. There are limits, of course. But I'm open to discussion.
    Heh... I find it amusing that you think violating copyright is wrong if it's just for your own listening, with no desire to profit, but if it's to add video and create something new to share with thousands or millions of people, you're OK with it. I really don't see the difference.

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  15. #68

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    Re: Piracy

    I think there are degrees of piracy. Like when it comes to video games. Is it truly right to get something for nothing? Let me bring up the case for the Humble Indie Bundle. Pay whatever you want, works on any platform, DRM free, etc. and for charity. Despite all of this it was still pirated. Is that right? To me that is operating on a whole different level then say making of copy of someone's mix CD.

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  17. #69

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by CingularDuality View Post
    Heh... I find it amusing that you think violating copyright is wrong if it's just for your own listening, with no desire to profit, but if it's to add video and create something new to share with thousands or millions of people, you're OK with it. I really don't see the difference.
    One is violating for personal enjoyment, the second is making a derivative artwork (that has more artistic meaning than the song alone). Quality and merit may vary, but there is a difference.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  19. #70

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    Re: Piracy

    I figure the artist (not the publisher!) should make some small profit from her work, enough to pay the bills and still have some left over to invest in new productions. (For movies and video games, "the artist" would be the entire production crew.) But once that profit is made, the work should go into the public domain, free for anyone to do anything with it, cut it up, make derivative works, trash the characters, sell copies for "profit", etc. And the same should apply to patents.
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

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  21. #71

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    I figure the artist (not the publisher!) should make some small profit from her work, enough to pay the bills and still have some left over to invest in new productions. (For movies and video games, "the artist" would be the entire production crew.) But once that profit is made, the work should go into the public domain, free for anyone to do anything with it, cut it up, make derivative works, trash the characters, sell copies for "profit", etc. And the same should apply to patents.
    I would love a shorter period for things to go into the public domain. However I think movies should still end up on DVD and music should still end up on CDs. There are plenty of instances where I enjoy the whole album (and it is cheaper for the whole album) or the special features of a DVD or simply the physical medium.

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  23. #72

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    I figure the artist (not the publisher!) should make some small profit from her work, enough to pay the bills and still have some left over to invest in new productions. (For movies and video games, "the artist" would be the entire production crew.) But once that profit is made, the work should go into the public domain, free for anyone to do anything with it, cut it up, make derivative works, trash the characters, sell copies for "profit", etc. And the same should apply to patents.
    From the Constition of the US:
    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    The founding fathers agreed, you can blame the SCOTUS that ruled that repetitively extending copyright is not the same thing as making it indefinite so adding a hundred years every hundred years is still limited and therefore constitutional. Same line covers patents. I think a logical argument would be that it isn't securing for limited times to the author if it only expires after the authors death.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  25. #73

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirusblk View Post
    I would love a shorter period for things to go into the public domain. However I think movies should still end up on DVD and music should still end up on CDs. There are plenty of instances where I enjoy the whole album (and it is cheaper for the whole album) or the special features of a DVD or simply the physical medium.
    An author could certainly provide attractive packaging to entice you to buy from him. But those who don't want the fancy features shouldn't be forced to pay for them as a way to protect the author's income forever. If you really want a certain kind of packaging, nothing should stop you from making (and selling) your own CDs and DVDs of material after its (hopefully short) copyright period is over.
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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  27. #74



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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    But we buy our government that way. We have to take everyone else's pork in order to get our own piece of pork. And we buy health care that way. We have to buy a whole medical package and can't buy ala carte without paying a huge premium. Kinda shows how you get a nice big lobbying monopoly in place to supply something and the individual gets screwed. But, hey, that's the price of living in our family-like society. (Wait, I thought I moved out of my mom and dad's house to get away from all that!)
    Well sucks for you guys in the states, cuz over here we just get a lil card, and we get everything for free. dont have to pay much of anything for it.
    Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers"

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  29. #75

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    Re: Piracy

    Quote Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
    One is violating for personal enjoyment, the second is making a derivative artwork (that has more artistic meaning than the song alone). Quality and merit may vary, but there is a difference.
    Practically speaking, in our digital age, you're still giving away some dude's music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwalc View Post
    Well sucks for you guys in the states, cuz over here we just get a lil card, and we get everything for free. dont have to pay much of anything for it.
    LOL!

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