Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

**gunjunkie** · 01-28-2011, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

And, as a Californian, I could be defended by their army:

http://www.yeeeeee.com/2008/10/27/be...iers-206-pics/

I had a fling with a goth Israeli F15 Wizzo in the 90's. True story.

**Ytman** · 01-30-2011, 12:03 AM

Here's the deal in my mind.

After the six days war the armies of all surrounding arab nations were pretty much gutted. In the short time from then till the Yom Kippur war all of those armies were rebuilt with exuberant aid from the USSR. In the short half decade span Egypt and Syria were gifted more tanks than the entire UK had.

The initial shots of the Yom Kippur war nearly lead to the complete eviceration of Israel as a nation and the slaughter of its many citizens for no other reason than blood lust.

Iran is incredibly opposed to the existance of Israel and Russia is still a major arms importer to them. Israel will forever be a target in the middle east until the old arab status quo is changed; this wont happen unless Iran undergoes a 180 degree turn in diplomatic/nuclear policy. As long as a 'rich' militarily capable nation with nukes exists in the middle east with no intent of cooperation with Israel, Israel will know no peace.

I'm not sure if the US can support Israel financially, but I don't see how a gigaintic war that would result in the complete distabilization of the middle east would benefit us either. Look at how Iraq and Afganistan have worked out for us... a war between Iran and Israel (and most definately Syria and some minor hamas skirmishers) that could result in the destruction of the only strong ally of the US would be disasterous. The civillian casualties would be unbarable.

If a war sparked between Israel and the middle east now I truly feel we would offer aid now, if Israel was going to lose... we'd go nearly all out. To avoid that what is a couple billion give to aid every year?

**ScratchMonkey** · 01-30-2011, 03:04 AM

Is anyone still giving away tons of military subsidies to anti-Israel countries now that the USSR is gone?

Is Iran rich enough to be a viable threat? Can we put pressure on Russia to stop supporting Iran? Who but Iran has nukes, and can Iran deploy them? If Israel glasses Iran, who's going to argue (except the US)? If we're not buying oil from Iran, why should we care?

**Ytman** · 01-30-2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Is anyone still giving away tons of military subsidies to anti-Israel countries now that the USSR is gone?

The degree of arms still going into Iran is a sizable amount.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11869..._trade.html#p2

Is Iran rich enough to be a viable threat?

Wealth has no bearing on war. Only on impact.

Can we put pressure on Russia to stop supporting Iran?

Been trying but not working.

Who but Iran has nukes, and can Iran deploy them?

Iran can deploy its nukes. Imagine a nuke accidentally being given to Hamas?

If Israel glasses Iran, who's going to argue (except the US)?

The use of nuclear weapons has not been mentioned unless in retaliation from a nuclear attack. Iran would be more likely to fire the first nuke than Israel. Israel waging full war against Iran would cripple their army and leave them open to any other number of enemies, Syria being the prime example. Instead chances are that Israel will take it upon themselves to send an airstrike agaisnt Iran's nuclear plants.

If we're not buying oil from Iran, why should we care?

Diplomacy. The greater good (no war is better than any war). The protection of innocents against a sworn enemy. The prevention of the first two sided nuclear war with a scale degrees higher than the end of WWII. The prevention of the chaos created by an all out war in the middle east.

Would anyone care if Iran bombed the UK, France, or Germany? I'd think so. Would the US support those nations? Yes.

But here we are talking about a nation that has been in near constant fear of its own destruction from other nations and people could care less?

**sordavie** · 01-30-2011, 12:24 PM

Iran is not known to have nukes or any weapons of mass destruction.

**Ytman** · 01-30-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by sordavie

Iran is not known to have nukes or any weapons of mass destruction.

The estimated time till nukes is small. We will be very likely to see a massive Israeli bombing of Iran within the next year and half. Israel will not allow nukes to Iran as to avoid the mentioned nuclear war.

**Sirusblk** · 01-30-2011, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ytman

The estimated time till nukes is small. We will be very likely to see a massive Israeli bombing of Iran within the next year and half. Israel will not allow nukes to Iran as to avoid the mentioned nuclear war.

I highly doubt that, they haven't even gotten close to perfecting nuclear power and with that virus attacking their centrifuges there's still plenty of time, and plenty of options. The assumption that Iran would be the first to attack is faulty at best. The truth is both Israel and Iran are both equally to blame for their conflict and both are just as volatile. The US supporting one over the other one just exacerbates the problem.

**SharinganTH1422** · 01-30-2011, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ytman

Would anyone care if Iran bombed the UK, France, or Germany? I'd think so. Would the US support those nations? Yes.

But here we are talking about a nation that has been in near constant fear of its own destruction from other nations and people could care less?

Difference is that those countries aren't crapping all over a region that they don't even recognise as a country (at least not since they gave up their empires). My problem is not with Israel, it's with their hard line policy over Palestine (and by hard line policy, I mean mass murder).

My problem with Israel is that it has the firm backing of practically every Western power and it has one of the strongest and most developed armies in the world (including nukes). It doesn't need to worry about security in the slightest because the entire Middle East knows the ties Israel has (especially with America) and that these countries would immediately come to the defence of Israel if they were ever in danger. Why do they then feel the need to go and blockade and mass murder and build on settlements belonging to neighbouring regions? It's certainly not security. It's purely because of a right-wing Government that doesn't really care that it's doing what they accuse their enemies of doing (persecution and discrimination) and perpetuating the hatred that's consumed the region. And the problem is America, Israel realise they can get away with all this, but if America took responsibility and put pressure on Israel to try and promote peace, it would be a start, and the only real way that America could effect some sort of real change in the region.

Alas, the lobbyists are the same type of people as the Israeli Government (who are too wrapped in their ancient hatred to want to look for a peaceful solution), and just want blind support of the Israeli Government.

**Ytman** · 01-30-2011, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

Difference is that those countries aren't crapping all over a region that they don't even recognise as a country (at least not since they gave up their empires). My problem is not with Israel, it's with their hard line policy over Palestine (and by hard line policy, I mean mass murder).

Right. Can you bring evidence of mass murder? Specific events and locals? Burial sites?

My problem with Israel is that it has the firm backing of practically every Western power and it has one of the strongest and most developed armies in the world (including nukes). It doesn't need to worry about security in the slightest because the entire Middle East knows the ties Israel has (especially with America) and that these countries would immediately come to the defence of Israel if they were ever in danger.

Oh so thats why the Six Days war didn't happen. Oh and those battles over the Golan heights never occurred during Yom Kippur. Oh and no terrorist organization constantly shells Israeli cities with mortars and rockets.

Just a public refresher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2...0.E2.80.932009

Israel is in constant conflict with its neighbors.

Why do they then feel the need to go and blockade and mass murder and build on settlements belonging to neighbouring regions? It's certainly not security.

A blockade stops the shipment of arms and weapons that can be used to harm Israeli citizens. The most recent event was a political stunt to try to bring out disfavor for Israel.

Try understanding from the perspective of a small nation surrounded by only enemies coming back from a plot of genocide no less than sixty years ago. A nation that twice within a half decade was surprised attack by all its enemies, the latter time nearly resulting in another genocide. The blockade isn't pretty, but neither are the attempts of Palestinian terror attacks shamelessly targeting civilians.

It's purely because of a right-wing Government that doesn't really care that it's doing what they accuse their enemies of doing (persecution and discrimination) and perpetuating the hatred that's consumed the region. And the problem is America, Israel realise they can get away with all this, but if America took responsibility and put pressure on Israel to try and promote peace, it would be a start, and the only real way that America could effect some sort of real change in the region.

I wont argue that Israel is the nice guy on the block. He's not. But when your neighbors are Iran, Egypt, and Syria... the neighborhood isn't known for its kindness. As long as Iran exists with the goals that it currently has any form of peace talk will only go halfway at best. Iran will do what ever it can to perpetuate the status quo of war as long as it can benefit from it.

Alas, the lobbyists are the same type of people as the Israeli Government (who are too wrapped in their ancient hatred to want to look for a peaceful solution), and just want blind support of the Israeli Government.

The hatred is far from ancient. Its thriving.

**Bisclaveret** · 01-31-2011, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ytman

Israel is in constant conflict with its neighbors.

Israel is in constant conflict with it's neighbors because it doesn't know when to stop. It constantly sucker punches, and then when the world looks at it disapprovingly, it shrugs with a grin on it's face saying "Oh, I wasn't supposed to do that?"
It even does this to it's own citizens depending on the political/religious parties (many of the orthodox religious sects that oppose any and all violence, for example, because they also oppose the Likud government.)

Then it will cry to the US claiming that it's constantly on the verge of extinction and should be allowed to do whatever it needs to ensure it's survival, and the great many of the citizens here eat that up.

A blockade stops the shipment of arms and weapons that can be used to harm Israeli citizens. The most recent event was a political stunt to try to bring out disfavor for Israel.

And how well did that work out for Israel? The Turkish blockade run played Israel like a fiddle. In fact, it worked too well. All Israel had to do was let the get within territorial waters and then what they did would have been legal, no questions asked. Instead, it decided to do it in the dead of night, in international waters, and cause an incident. An incident which threatened ties with it's own allies. Because Israel jumped the gun, it was seen as the aggressor, when it should have (and had all the time in the world) waited.

Try understanding from the perspective of a small nation surrounded by only enemies coming back from a plot of genocide no less than sixty years ago. A nation that twice within a half decade was surprised attack by all its enemies, the latter time nearly resulting in another genocide. The blockade isn't pretty, but neither are the attempts of Palestinian terror attacks shamelessly targeting civilians.

I try putting it in the context of a nation with nuclear capability, a strong economy, one of the largest and most modern militaries in the region, and with a major backing by the USA to support them (seemingly) blindly in any endeavor they care to go on.

**SharinganTH1422** · 01-31-2011, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ytman

Right. Can you bring evidence of mass murder? Specific events and locals? Burial sites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8257301.stm

Originally Posted by Ytman

Oh so thats why the Six Days war didn't happen. Oh and those battles over the Golan heights never occurred during Yom Kippur. Oh and no terrorist organization constantly shells Israeli cities with mortars and rockets.

Just a public refresher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2...0.E2.80.932009

Israel is in constant conflict with its neighbors.

It's in constant conflict, is it in constant danger? Real danger? Absolutely not. Is part of the problem that it continues to blockade and build settlements in areas that are not considered its own territories? It would seem yes. You have to think why the people would vote for a fascist, combative Government? If you look at the election of Hitler, it came from a nation of people who'd been screwed over by their enemies after the First World War, leading to a combination of economic chaos and social unrest, and they didn't even have people building stuff on their land or invading them. It's quite clear to me that the responsibility falls on the more powerful nation to promote peace through peace, not aggressive action taken for the purpose of hatred, as opposed to actually taking this action to secure themselves, which they certainly are secure against (You do realise that all those wars you mentioned happened decades ago, and since then the relationship between the USA and Israel has strengthened massively, as has Israel's economic and military power).

Originally Posted by Ytman

A blockade stops the shipment of arms and weapons that can be used to harm Israeli citizens. The most recent event was a political stunt to try to bring out disfavor for Israel.

It does a lot more than that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8631860.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7818022.stm

What have been the effects of the Israeli blockade?

They have been severe. Little but humanitarian basics have been allowed into Gaza since Hamas seized power in 2007. Before the Israeli operation began, health, water, sewage and power infrastructure were seriously ailing because of a lack of spare parts. The blockade includes limits on fuel, which have on several occasions forced the power plant that supplies Gaza City to shut down.

A total ban on exports has left the already fragile economy devastated. Unemployment has soared. The United Nations Relief and Works agency (Unrwa) provides basic food aid to about 750,000 people in Gaza, but in the weeks preceding the Israeli operation these were suspended because the UN ran out of food because Israel closed the crossings into Gaza citing security reasons.

Goods ranging from food to missiles have, however, been brought in through smuggling tunnels from Egypt.

And even if they are bringing in weapons, as a country (or not) why shouldn't they have a right to possess weapons? Every country does for their security, and can you really blame the Gazans for wanting weapons when they're being blockaded, invaded and have settlements built on their territories (which you've completely ignored in your posts).

Originally Posted by Ytman

Try understanding from the perspective of a small nation surrounded by only enemies coming back from a plot of genocide no less than sixty years ago. A nation that twice within a half decade was surprised attack by all its enemies, the latter time nearly resulting in another genocide. The blockade isn't pretty, but neither are the attempts of Palestinian terror attacks shamelessly targeting civilians.

You're talking about 60 years ago as thought it's two weeks ago, as well as one that hasn't got the complete backing of the world's biggest superpower and itself doesn't do too bad when it comes to military strength. I guess we should keep an eye on Germany too?

Originally Posted by Ytman

I wont argue that Israel is the nice guy on the block. He's not. But when your neighbors are Iran, Egypt, and Syria... the neighborhood isn't known for its kindness.

But if your best friend is the head of the police, it gives you an awful lot of power in that neighbourhood. If Israel wanted to, they could use their position to try and make peace with their neighbours, as opposed to abusing that position and pouring more fuel onto the fire.

Originally Posted by Ytman

The hatred is far from ancient. Its thriving.

And everyone seems content to perpetuate it, as opposed to trying to end it.

**PL_OSTRY** · 01-31-2011, 11:57 AM

On average every US citizen trough out their life span will pay $25000 in taxes to help Israel arm it self when we live in a country which has:
* In 2009, 43.6 million people (14.3 percent) were in poverty.
* In 2009, 8.8 (11.1% percent) million families were in poverty.
* In 2009, 24.7 million (12.9 percent) of people aged 18-64 were in poverty.
* In 2009, 15.5 million (20.7 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty.
* In 2009, 3.4 million (8.9 percent) seniors 65 and older were in poverty.

Not mentioning the deficit which is the biggest in world history.
http://feedingamerica.org/faces-of-h...tatistics.aspx

**Ytman** · 01-31-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths.

I'm not sure if you are intentionally not quoting the entire paragraph or if it slipped your mind. In anycase your source goes on to say:

Following the war, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its fighters. However, in November 2010, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad acknowledged that as many as 700 fighters belonging to Hamas, affiliated factions and security personnel were killed. His admission was consistent with Israeli estimates of at least 709 “terror operatives” killed during the operation.[31][51]

At least you have 366 civillian casualties and worst you have 700. Considering that Hamas was the provokee and was using human shields as a means to lure Israel into a close city fight to cause large Israeli casualties you must understand that this is hardly a massacre. War is terrible, no doubt, but why would you expose your troops to harm if you could obtain your objective at little cost to your own forces?

Here's a detailed explanation: http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...PID=0&IID=3026

Any more 'massacres' and 'purges'?

It's in constant conflict, is it in constant danger? Real danger? Absolutely not.

When the V2 was lobbed constantly from Germany to London was the United Kingdom in any real danger as you put it? When any nation assaults another nation's citizens and infrastructure no matter how 'small' it is in regards to the whole, it is the responsibility of the victim nation to attempt to defend itself. Pearl Harbor never really placed the continental United States at Real danger let alone Nazi Germany. Didn't stop war or thousands of civillian deaths.

Is part of the problem that it continues to blockade and build settlements in areas that are not considered its own territories? It would seem yes.

What specific territories are you talking about? Give me regions, and they better not be areas aquired after the Six Days War or the Yom Kippur War.

You have to think why the people would vote for a fascist, combative Government?

Israel is fascist? Thats new. Evidence?

Combative I wouldn't disagree with though.

If you look at the election of Hitler, it came from a nation of people who'd been screwed over by their enemies after the First World War, leading to a combination of economic chaos and social unrest, and they didn't even have people building stuff on their land or invading them.

So who are we likening Nazi Germany to? Israel or the Gazans? I see alot more in parallel between Nazi Germany and Gazan than Israel.

It's quite clear to me that the responsibility falls on the more powerful nation to promote peace through peace, not aggressive action taken for the purpose of hatred,

Oh so the Gazza War was a war for hatred? It wasn't a nation responding to attacks targeted at its own civillians? Weird.

as opposed to actually taking this action to secure themselves, which they certainly are secure against (You do realise that all those wars you mentioned happened decades ago, and since then the relationship between the USA and Israel has strengthened massively, as has Israel's economic and military power).

Israel is more secure now than before, most definately, but the looming threat of Iran and the fact that Hamas shows no sign of allowing Israel to exist in peace... I'd say they are far from UK 'safe'.

It does a lot more than that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8631860.stm

That is an article about surfing in Gazza and how the IDF allowed the shipment of 15 surfboards into Gazza. (?purpose of link?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7818022.stm

And even if they are bringing in weapons, as a country (or not) why shouldn't they have a right to possess weapons? Every country does for their security, and can you really blame the Gazans for wanting weapons when they're being blockaded, invaded and have settlements built on their territories (which you've completely ignored in your posts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre

Palestine, since before the creation of Israel, has fought against Jews no matter what. They started the conflict and they continue the conlfict. I blame Gazan government for wanting to harm Israel and would rather adopt a policy of war than a policy of peace. Hamas gained authority when Israel left, Hamas' only key to power is it constant hatred and scapegoating of Israel. They are attempting to blame everything on Israel and only use Israel's excellent war planning against it.

You're talking about 60 years ago as thought it's two weeks ago, as well as one that hasn't got the complete backing of the world's biggest superpower and itself doesn't do too bad when it comes to military strength. I guess we should keep an eye on Germany too?

Japan and Germany still feel the sting of WWII; nationalism is thuroughly detested in Germany, and Japan still is not allowed much by means of an army.

But if your best friend is the head of the police, it gives you an awful lot of power in that neighbourhood. If Israel wanted to, they could use their position to try and make peace with their neighbours, as opposed to abusing that position and pouring more fuel onto the fire.

The US is not the world police, we have little say over that region. Placing all the blame of conflict on Israel's shoulders is unjustified and wrong. Israel doesn't start the conflicts, they respond to them. Albeit with a degree of efficiency that makes it easy to point the finger at them.

And everyone seems content to perpetuate it, as opposed to trying to end it.

Trust me when I say this: if Iran ever undergoes a 180 degree spin the middle east will know peace. Until then the flames of turmoil will be stocked by Iran as it only gains as long as their is conflict.

------------------

On average every US citizen trough out their life span will pay $25000 in taxes to help Israel arm it self when we live in a country which has:
* In 2009, 43.6 million people (14.3 percent) were in poverty.
* In 2009, 8.8 (11.1% percent) million families were in poverty.
* In 2009, 24.7 million (12.9 percent) of people aged 18-64 were in poverty.
* In 2009, 15.5 million (20.7 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty.
* In 2009, 3.4 million (8.9 percent) seniors 65 and older were in poverty.

Oh but wait whats that Tea Party movement all about? No socialism.... Hrmm well I guess the united states would be better off just giving back that average 25000 dollars to the wealthy instead of using it to help the poor.

**ScratchMonkey** · 01-31-2011, 06:00 PM

Should the US support Israel supporting Egypt?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...70U53720110131

**Sirusblk** · 01-31-2011, 10:36 PM

I'm sympathetic to Egypt but I'm tired of the US sending money to Israel and then Israel also uses that money on other countries. No thanks. I say stop all financial aid to Israel.