Welcome to Tactical Gamer

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26
Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Weekend of Death for America? - Fess Parker, a.k.a. "Davy Crockett," died yesterday at 85. News link here . Disney's old
  1. #1

    SilentSunshine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    CA, USA
    Age
    24
    Posts
    297
    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Weekend of Death for America?

    Fess Parker, a.k.a. "Davy Crockett," died yesterday at 85. News link here.

    Disney's old "Davy Crockett" movie was one of a select few I've watched more than twice during my childhood. I may need to pull it back out again. I know he played the part extremely well. As a conservative in most respects, I especially admired Crockett's "Not Yours to Give" speech before Congress 4/2/1828. The truth of that account has been questioned, but I saw a record here that confirms the gist of the common account at the bottom right of the page.

    Sadly, today's Congress is aiming to implement more of the theft Crockett stood against.

    The proposed Health bill I've seen online tallies 2310 pdf pages plus 2409 pages of Senate amendments. Crockett's specific instance concerned an amount of $20,000. I've heard the figure of "a fifth of the economy" to describe the healthcare system that will be affected by the proposed bill. I do believe that requiring companies to work at a loss - just for example, covering existing conditions at rates that can be "affordable" or advantageous to consumers - will legislate private corporations out of existence, and out of that portion of the economy. I do not believe it will happen instantaneously, of course. Please don't paint me with alarmist colors; I'm a realist.

    I don't see much main stream media, but caught a quote from the President this evening. He said, "This debate is about the character of the nation." I have personally never heard a deeper sentence from a living president and I could not agree with that quote more. It sounds like the character of our nation's leaders will be shown on Sunday. Will they have what it takes to take what you have?


    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
    something which is not everything it should be." Edgar Allan Poe

  2.  
  3. #2

    snooggums's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kansas - armpit of the USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    5,050
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    Crockett's specific instance concerned an amount of $20,000. I've heard the figure of "a fifth of the economy" to describe the healthcare system that will be affected by the proposed bill. I do believe that requiring companies to work at a loss - just for example, covering existing conditions at rates that can be "affordable" or advantageous to consumers - will legislate private corporations out of existence, and out of that portion of the economy. I do not believe it will happen instantaneously, of course. Please don't paint me with alarmist colors; I'm a realist.
    Those are lies from the insurance sector. Every other western country covers all or more of their populace for cheaper than we do. People come to the US for faster surgery because the lines are shorter due to the poor not being in line. It is cheaper overall to insure everyone than to pick and choose but charge people as if they were insuring everyone.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  4.  
  5. #3

    SilentSunshine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    CA, USA
    Age
    24
    Posts
    297
    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    ^
    Having long lines means death and suffering when we're talking about healthcare. It's not just an inconvenience like it would be in say, the entertainment industry. The shift would be eliminating the preferential treatment for people who can provide an equivalent service/payment for their treatment. Longer lines (if that were the only negative factor we were to consider) will mean the quality of national healthcare is lowered.

    If this is not so, could you explain why more doctors and producers of healthcare equipment don't fill the needs in all these other wonderful Western nations?


    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
    something which is not everything it should be." Edgar Allan Poe

  6.  

     
  7. #4

    gunjunkie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    948
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    In most of those countries, you can still get private care if you pay extra for it. In fact, some of the leading private (expensive) cancer clinics are in Germany, which seems to do just fine with national health care.

    I heard an interesting theory the other day. The Detroit car giants essentially collapsed under the weight of paying the ridiculous health care costs for retired employees. Had there been a cheaper system in place, It's possible they could have stayed in business longer.

    I don't buy this sky is falling stuff for a second. I'd rather have everyone covered and put up with what that brings than to see poor people die and suffer because they had a "pre-existing condition" i.e. were a risk to the profit margin. Then again, I think the bill is basically a cop out with no public option.


    Do or do not, there is no try....
    -- Yoda, Dagobah

  8.  
  9. #5

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    17,676
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Well, I'm anti-welfare to begin with. I think the poor deserve what they work to earn. I know I'm a cold hearted bastard to carry this over to health care, but I believe it applies. There are plenty of ways for poor people to lift themselves out of poverty in the US. The US Army is constantly whining that they're not meeting recruiting goals. We already have free clinics that provide preventative care and emergency care for free. What exactly will this plan fix? Nothing. It'll just mess it up for those of us that actually work for a living.

  10.  
  11. #6

    gunjunkie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    948
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    How is stopping a corporation denying someone care because it deems it less profitable welfare? I think welfare sucks, on this we agree, but I also think rampant profiteering on something as fundamental as healthcare is pretty disgusting. The free clinic thing works to a degree, until something serious happens. Then its bad bad bad. As I said, I don't think this is the plan I would have put together, if it was me. It doesn't go far enough, but its better than nothing in a lot of ways, especially with regard to long term lowering of the price of healthcare to the individual, and reigning in the profit over humanity aspect the insurance industry puts above all else.

    You know, I saw a bill for a work colleagues fathers treatment the other day. He's not poor, he works hard, and his father had health insurance, a good plan too, but he got cancer, and at some point, the insurance company said they wouldn't pay anymore, for some bulls* sounding reason. He is now $1.5M (yes, million) in the hole because his father got sick, and his family wasn't prepared to just let him die. I fail to see how that makes any sense. The fact that he has done everything right, according to the "american dream" and still gets into this situation, tells me the system is horribly, horribly broken, and anything at this point to change it is a step that is necessary.


    Do or do not, there is no try....
    -- Yoda, Dagobah

  12.  

     
  13. #7

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    17,676
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunjunkie View Post
    He is now $1.5M (yes, million) in the hole because his father got sick, and his family wasn't prepared to just let him die. I fail to see how that makes any sense. The fact that he has done everything right, according to the "american dream" and still gets into this situation, tells me the system is horribly, horribly broken, and anything at this point to change it is a step that is necessary.
    Cancer treatment is expensive. What is your point? I don't understand your argument.

    When cancer is the cause of somewhere between a quarter and a fifth of all death in the USA, and cancer treatment can cost millions of dollars, how is any health care plan going to help? Do you think that spreading the cost of 1.5 million dollars amongst four people will make it more manageable? Can you handle a $375,000 medical bill in order to provide your friend's cancer treatment?

    Sure, I'm simplifying the math, but I hope you get the basic concept. It's simply not feasible to provide the same medical coverage to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay an insurance premium.

  14.  
  15. #8


    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    3,445
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Chemotherapy treatments wouldn't be so costly ($~30k for lung cancer on average, up 25% from 2002) if the drugs weren't patented. Cancer treatment is expensive in a very large part because pharmaceutical companies can make a huge profit on something they own and nobody else is allowed to manufacture. And they don't have any incentive to look in to unpatenable, possibly more effective and cheaper, ways of treating cancer.

    For instance, if you recall from '07: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10971
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlor...r_applications
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/op...moss.html?_r=1 (How about a possible cancer treatment that costs 70 cents per day?)
    Last edited by sordavie; 03-20-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  16.  
  17. #9

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    17,676
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by sordavie View Post
    Chemotherapy treatments wouldn't be so costly ($~30k for lung cancer on average, up 25% from 2002) if the drugs weren't patented.
    Yes, horrible, I'm sure, but a completely separate problem. We're talking about the President's health care plan, and how you and I should pay so that even the poorest have the same health care as we do.

  18.  

     
  19. #10

    ScratchMonkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Pablo, California
    Age
    53
    Posts
    8,312
    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  20.  
  21. #11

    ScratchMonkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Pablo, California
    Age
    53
    Posts
    8,312
    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Speaking of losses, Peter Graves died this week.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Graves_%28actor%29
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  22.  
  23. #12

    Hambergler's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    HTX
    Age
    39
    Posts
    1,561
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by CingularDuality View Post
    Cancer treatment is expensive. What is your point? I don't understand your argument.

    When cancer is the cause of somewhere between a quarter and a fifth of all death in the USA, and cancer treatment can cost millions of dollars, how is any health care plan going to help? Do you think that spreading the cost of 1.5 million dollars amongst four people will make it more manageable? Can you handle a $375,000 medical bill in order to provide your friend's cancer treatment?

    Sure, I'm simplifying the math, but I hope you get the basic concept. It's simply not feasible to provide the same medical coverage to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay an insurance premium.
    The problem is the cost. $80 for four aspirins at a hospital. Insurance companies, Dr's and hospitals are taking advantage of the sick and price gouging. It's unethical and disgusting.

    Don't think you are not paying in premiums or through a lower salary to have these debts removed off the insurance companies or hospitals books.

  24.  

     
  25. #13

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    17,676
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambergler View Post
    The problem is the cost. $80 for four aspirins at a hospital. Insurance companies, Dr's and hospitals are taking advantage of the sick and price gouging. It's unethical and disgusting.

    Don't think you are not paying in premiums or through a lower salary to have these debts removed off the insurance companies or hospitals books.
    Ha! How do you think hospitals pay for the massive amounts of uninsured ER visits? I hate to turn this into an illegal immigration debate, but illegal aliens are a massive problem for most hospitals across the USA. When hospital emergency rooms are being used because it's the only way some people know how to get treatment without being deported, the hospitals have to recoup their costs somewhere. Maybe you have some rich hospitals where you live, but here they struggle to stay solvent.

    I'm not sure where you think the money is going to come from to pay for the President's plan, but I'm frightened by how much might have to come from me.

    Sure, the industry as a whole profits off of the sick. Without profit, there would be no incentive for efficiency and innovation. But unethical and disgusting? Certain aspects, yes. Generically speaking, no.

  26.  
  27. #14


    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    3,445
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    According to the Medicare Payment Advisory Committee, Report to the Congress (Washington: MedPAC, March 2001), the total amount of uncompensated care in 1999 provided by hospitals was $20.8 billion, 6.2 % of their total expenditures. $20.8 billion is a lot, but it's a small portion of the total amount of money spent on personal health care ($1235 billion in 2001). I'm sure border hospitals have a huge problem with illegal aliens receiving uncompensated care, and I'm sure it's gotten worse over the past decade. I don't think, however, it's a huge portion of the overall costs.

    But you say that you're afraid that the President's plan will make you pay a lot for the medical costs incurred by the uninsured and illegal aliens. You already pay for these costs in your insurance premium - or your employer does and figures in to how your salary and benefits are calculated. Answer your own question: how do you think they pay for the costs associated with uninsured ER visits? Or rather, who pays for the costs? Someone does right? Isn't it all the people who pay for their health care? I take it that you're one of these people. So it's unclear what you're complaining about. Will it make you pay more than you already do? If so, for what? Will there be a sharp increase in emergency medical care if we implement a national healthcare plan? Presumably not, since the insured can go for nonemergency and preventative care, which intuitively would reduce emergency care demand. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. But I don't see why there would be a sharp increase in emergency medical care given that the uninsured now can get it anyway.

    I'm just not sure why you think the plan will take away a lot of your money. Can you explain why it will? I'm undecided on whether it's a good or bad thing - though perhaps it's because I don't know much about the plan. Help me understand why the plan is bad for me.

    I think that we need to change the way that pharmaceutical industry, which as you point out is a different subject than the President's plan. Will the plan affect how the pharmaceutical industry works? I don't know. The way it works now, profits are not incentives for efficiency and innovation in that area. Perhaps you're right that profits are necessary for there to be incentives for efficiency and innovation, but it's not the case that profits are sufficient for there to be incentives for efficiency and innovation. Monopolies are cases where there are profits but there are no incentives for efficiency and innovation. It's a case where you want the situation to be as conservative as possible to maintain profits.

  28.  
  29. #15

    gunjunkie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Palo Alto, CA
    Posts
    948
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Weekend of Death for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by CingularDuality View Post
    Can you handle a $375,000 medical bill in order to provide your friend's cancer treatment?

    Sure, I'm simplifying the math, but I hope you get the basic concept. It's simply not feasible to provide the same medical coverage to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay an insurance premium.
    I don't get that. If we spread it over 300 million people, it would only be 50 cents. Anyway, the point is the insurance company refused to pay for his treatment. Even though (as I understand), he'd been paying into them for a long time. So, that is what needs changing. If they claim to be insurance, then act like insurance, otherwise, they should call themselves what they really are, and become a bank for health costs, and pay interest on deposits (premiums). I wonder if they would be competitive with other banks at that point?


    Do or do not, there is no try....
    -- Yoda, Dagobah

  30.  

     
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


  
 

Back to top