Welcome to Tactical Gamer

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 70
Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Tasers back in the news? - Only a petty douchebag with no conscience would taser a pregnant woman for a speeding
  1. #16

    mp40x's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Georgetown, KY
    Age
    40
    Posts
    1,276
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Only a petty douchebag with no conscience would taser a pregnant woman for a speeding ticket.

    The problem with tasers is that they have gone beyond their original scope of use, wich was supposed to be an alternative to lethal force. Now, they are routinely used for almost every situation including pregnant women that wont sign a speeding ticket. The fact is that they are extremely dangerous, and police over use them.

    Taser Abuse in the United States

    Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon. Amnesty International is concerned that Tasers are being used as tools of routine force -- rather than as an alternative to firearms.

    Medical studies so far on the effects of Tasers have either been limited in scope or unduly influenced by the weapons' primary manufacturer. No study has adequately examined the impact of Tasers on potentially at-risk individuals -- people who have medical conditions, take prescription medications, are mentally ill or are under the influence of narcotics. Rigorous, independent, impartial study of their use and effects is urgently needed to determine what role Tasers may have played in the 351 deaths and to determine appropriate guidelines for future Taser use.

    Given the unresolved safety concerns, Amnesty International recommends that police departments either suspend the use of Tasers and stun guns pending further safety research or limit their use to situations where officers would otherwise be justified in resorting to firearms.
    Tasers under scrutiny after claims of death and injury

    On October 7, 2006, Steven Butler, by his own admission, was drunk and disorderly. He refused an order from a police officer in his hometown to get off a city bus. The officer used his Taser ECD (officially, an "Electronic Control Device") three times.

    According to doctors, Butler suffered immediate cardiac arrest. He was revived by emergency medical technicians who happened to be close by, but his attorneys say his brain was deprived of oxygen for as long as 18 minutes. He is now permanently disabled.
    Then there's the infamous study that Taser International funded themselves.

    John Burton, a lawyer based in Pasadena, California, says he can prove that when the weapons are fired directly over the chest, they can cause and have caused cardiac arrest. In addition, Burton says he can prove Taser knew about that danger.

    "Well, we can prove that by early 2006," said Burton, "but we suspect they had all the necessary data since 2005, since they were funding the study."

    The study Burton mentions was published in early 2006 by the American College of Cardiology Foundation. Funded by Taser, it focused on pigs struck by Tasers, with the conclusions, according to the study, "generalized to humans."

    The authors wrote that being hit by a Taser is unlikely to cause cardiac arrest, but nevertheless recommended Taser darts not be fired near the heart to "greatly reduce any concern for induction of ventricular arrhythmias."

    Dr. Douglas Zipes, a cardiologist based outside Indianapolis, Indiana, plans to testify against Taser in any lawsuit regarding what happened to Butler. In plain English, he says, that recommendation is a clear warning.

    "I think Taser has been disingenuous and certainly up to 2006 -- the case we are talking about -- Taser said in their educational materials that there was no cardiac risk whatsoever," Zipes said. "That Taser could not produce a heart problem, that there was no long lasting effect from Taser."

    Medical experts say that if a person is hit by a Taser dart near the chest, one result is a dramatic increase in the subject's heartbeat -- from a resting 72 beats a minute to as many as 220 beats a minute for a short period of time. In its court filings, the company says the "peak-loaded" voltage from a Taser at impact ranges up to 40,000 volts but it's a 600-volt average for the duration of the firing.
    Fairness of Taser study in question

    An adviser to a federally funded study concerning the safety of stun guns made by Taser International also is a paid consultant to Taser, the Justice Department acknowledges. The situation is raising questions about potential conflicts of interest in the $500,000 study, which is being done amid reports that dozens of people have died after being shocked with stun guns.
    Taser International also has lobbyists in many major cities who are close to the local police departments and unions.

    Daley defends expanded use of tasers

    Tasers have caused problems, but they do “less harm” than real bullets, Mayor Daley said today, defending the Chicago Police Department’s decision to dramatically expand the use of “stun guns.”

    Daley said the decision to more than double the use of Tasers — and place one in every squad car — was designed to minimize injury and reduce liability caused by police shootings.

    Taser International’s registered lobbyist is former Chicago Police Supt. Terry Hillard. The company’s $5 million contract runs through 2011.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    She had already shown a willingness to drive at unsafe speeds that would kill innocent bystanders.
    She was driving 32 MPH in a school zone, hardly reckless in my opinion.

    Malaika Brooks was driving her son to Seattle's African American Academy in 2004 when she was stopped for doing 32 mph in a school zone. She insisted it was the car in front of her that was speeding, and refused to sign the ticket because she thought she'd be admitting guilt. Link


    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    ISTM that a taser is precisely a human shock collar. The alternative would be to risk tackling her in her car (her territory) and risk getting a knife or gunshot in the ribs. Or have her drive away and kill a passerby at unsafe speed.
    The 'what if's' in your post are terribly overstated.

    Also, from the judge that dissented in the case.

    The majority's opinion outraged Judge Marsha Berzon, who called it "off the wall."

    "I fail utterly to comprehend how my colleagues are able to conclude that it was objectively reasonable to use any force against Brooks, let alone three activations of a Taser, in response to such a trivial offense," she wrote.

    She argued that under Washington law, the officers had no authority to take Brooks into custody: Failure to sign a traffic infraction is not an arrestable offense, and it's not illegal to resist an unlawful arrest.

    Berzon said the majority's notion that Brooks obstructed officers was so far-fetched that even the officers themselves didn't make that legal argument. To obstruct an officer, one must obstruct the officer's official duties, and the officers' only duties in this case were to detain Brooks long enough to identify her, check for warrants, write up the citation and give it to her. Brooks' failure to sign did not interfere with those duties, she said.

    Furthermore, Brooks posed no apparent threat, and the officers could not have known how stunning her would affect the fetus, or whether it might prompt premature labor — another reason their actions were inexcusable, Berzon said.

    Brooks' lawyer, Eric Zubel, said he would ask the 9th Circuit to rehear the case.

    "This is outrageous — that something like this could happen to a pregnant woman, in front of an elementary school, at 8:30 in the morning, to someone who posed no threat whatsoever," he said.
    Last edited by mp40x; 03-30-2010 at 01:09 PM.


  2.  
  3. #17

    KoopaTroopa's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Clarksville, Tennessee, United States
    Age
    31
    Posts
    2,938

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    The clear problem here is that the officers involved did not turn on their department-issued clairvoyance devices that enables them to know the disposition of a person and their intentions in advance. All cops have them.

    Or at least this forum seems to think so.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Blah blah blah.

  4.  
  5. #18

    Kerostasis's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    28
    Posts
    3,850

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    If a police officer is lawfully attempting to arrest someone, and the arrestee refuses to comply with the arrest, I'm pretty sure escalation of force is standard practice. That's what the officers will always do next, and taser is used as an alternative to hand-grappling, not as an alternative to writing a ticket.

    The only thing that confuses me here is the original article claimed that refusing to sign a ticket doesn't justify an arrest in the first place. I think in the fine print on the last traffic ticket I got, it explained that signing the ticket is what avoids the necessity of being arrested. Perhaps it varies from state to state, but it was my understanding that without your signature, the ticket isn't legally enforceable, and if you don't sign voluntarily, they will arrest you and charge you with your traffic offense at the nearest police station instead. Am I wrong here?
    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns.
    Yoshi MCF: The fact that you speak Wyz doesn't disprove his insanity. It only proves yours.
    Pokerface: It's now cheaper to put gas on my cereal. I am saddened.

  6.  

     
  7. #19

    snooggums's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kansas - armpit of the USA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    4,801

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Escalation of force for non-compliance is only acceptable for violent resistance. Someone sitting on the street who refuses to comply can be carried away, but if they don't put up a fight then the cops can't start hitting the person with billy clubs, so logically they shouldn't be able to use electric shock that is intended to be used to subdue someone who would normally be shot with a gun. If the taser hadn't worked, should the officers have shot her per your escalation logic?

    No, the taser is inappropriate for non-violent resistance. Hey Gill, since police can't read minds and apparently you think they should be able to use a taser because of that, are you fine with them tasering you when they first pull you over to make sure you don't speed off before they issue you a ticket? They sure can't know that you won't do that can they?
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  8.  
  9. #20

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    18,761

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Quote Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
    Escalation of force for non-compliance is only acceptable for violent resistance. Someone sitting on the street who refuses to comply can be carried away, but if they don't put up a fight then the cops can't start hitting the person with billy clubs, so logically they shouldn't be able to use electric shock that is intended to be used to subdue someone who would normally be shot with a gun.
    There's a difference between passive resistance and active resistance. Someone refusing to stand up or walk is passive. Sure, they can be dragged to a wheelchair or stretcher, restrained, and transported to jail without further incident. Active resistance involves holding on to something, jerking your limbs out of the officers' grasp, blocking the officer with your leg, or otherwise taking action to resist arrest and is just a heartbeat away from assault on an officer.

    When you look at situations like these, ask yourself if the officer used the minimum amount of force necessary to arrest the person and keep the public safe. This lady was being arrested. At that point, the police had to take her to jail. The Taser is a compliance tool. Using the Taser on a pregnant woman would be MUCH safer than the potential for injury that would occur if the put hands on her and attempted to fight with her until they muscled her out of her car, into handcuffs, and into their squad car. It doesn't matter why she was being arrested. The fact is that they used the minimum amount of force necessary to safely arrest her.

  10.  
  11. #21

    snooggums's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kansas - armpit of the USA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    4,801

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    So if they did not have a taser, hitting her with a baton would have been acceptable in the same situation?

    The problem I keep seeing in your side of the argument is an assumption that a taser is a safe alternative to manhandling someone and not the alternative to a gun that it really is. Electrocution is not a safe method of forcing compliance.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  12.  

     
  13. #22

    CingularDuality's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    18,761

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Quote Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
    So if they did not have a taser, hitting her with a baton would have been acceptable in the same situation?
    No, they would probably try joint manipulation and brute force, of which the first risks injury to the arrested person, while the second presents serious risks of injury to all involved.

    The problem I keep seeing in your side of the argument is an assumption that a taser is a safe alternative to manhandling someone and not the alternative to a gun that it really is. Electrocution is not a safe method of forcing compliance.
    It's very safe. Injuries for both officers and arrested persons have dropped dramatically since Tasers have been introduced. It's not perfect, it does present problems in certain situations, and it's certainly capable of being abused, but, overall, it's a great tool that is being used to prevent people from suffering more serious injuries due to techniques that are not as safe.

  14.  
  15. #23

    snooggums's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kansas - armpit of the USA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    4,801

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    If you read the court papers they were already forcibly removing her from the car with joint manipulation, the taser was an addition to that. In addition:
    ii. Threat Posed to Officers or Bystanders
    [12] The threat posed is the most significant Graham factor.
    See Chew v. Gates, 27 F.3d 1432, 1441 (9th Cir. 1994).
    The district court found that Brooks posed no danger to the public or officers because she never used or threatened force against the Officers (using it only to immobilize herself) and could not have hurt anyone with her car. The last point stems from the court’s misunderstanding of the record; even Brooks admits that the keys remained on the floorboard of her car and were not in the Officers’ possession. Whether the keys were on the floorboard or in the Officers’ possession, it seems clear that Brooks was not going to be able to harm anyone with her car at a moment’s notice. Nonetheless, some threat she might retrieve the keys and drive off erratically remained, particularly given her refusal to leave the car and her state of agitation.
    She was upset for being told she would be arrested for not signing a form that was either a Notice of Infraction (warning, doesn't need to be signed) or a Citation to Appear, that is in question. In either case she was arrested for not signing, and the justification for the arrest was that an officer can arrest you when the pull you over to start with, not because of the refusal to sign if it was a Citation as the officers had stated. This in my opinion is a runaround arrest because the standard procedure is to simply leave you in your car. Basically, they officers made it unclear to the citizen that what they were issuing (why don't they have a record of the piece of paper is beyond me) was the Citation and not the Notice, which the citizen claims it was. Since the order to arrest was for not signing, the justification of a standard option to arrest for the ticket was inappropriate to start with. The police then initiated the physical confrontation and used the taser to complete.

    Sure tasers will reduce injuries. Taser a violent person and I would have little issue with it in most cases. If she had threatened the officers, indicated that she would drive off or anything similar I would not have an issue. The problem here is that the officers unnecessarily instigated a physical confrontation and then used a taser to complete the arrest when she was actively resisting, which is not in the ballpark of violently resisting any more than refusing to give your name when arrested is next to spitting on the officer. The problem is that the officers used excessive force to start with, then used the taser as part of that force.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  16.  
  17. #24

    Ferris Bueller's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    1123, 6536, 5321
    Age
    29
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Dont know if this has been posted yet, but since the discussion is about tasers, I thought I'd throw it in:
    Boulder man's family allowed to pursue lawsuit against Taser International
    Judge rejects request to throw out the case filed by parents of Ryan Wilson
    A wrongful-death lawsuit filed by the parents of a Boulder man who died after a Lafayette police officer shot him with a stun gun can move ahead to trial after a federal judge rejected Taser International's request to throw out the case.

    Ryan Wilson, 22, died Aug. 4, 2006, after being stunned by a Taser while running from Lafayette police, who were investigating a report of marijuana plants growing in the area. The Boulder County Coroner's Office ruled that Wilson died of an irregular heartbeat caused by a combination of the exertion from running, the Taser shock and a heart condition present since birth.

    The stun-gun company denied the Taser caused his death. It argued that there's no proof the Taser properly connected to Wilson in the first place, while also arguing that the device worked appropriately by immediately incapacitating him.

    U.S. District Court Judge Philip A. Brimmer, in a written order filed Tuesday, accused the company of trying to "have its cake and eat it too."

    "The court is satisfied that a jury, relying upon the evidence of what occurred upon the discharge of the Taser and the expert testimony .., could conclude that the Taser contributed to Mr. Wilson's death," he wrote.

    Wilson's parents, Wendy and Jack Wilson, filed separate lawsuits against Taser International, the Lafayette Police Department, Chief Paul Schultz and officer John Harris, who shot Wilson with the Taser.

    Taser International officials and Chief Schultz didn't return calls from the Camera on Tuesday.

    The lawsuits, which were combined in 2008, allege that Taser makes a defective product and that officials don't warn customers; that Harris used excessive force; and that Lafayette police and Chief Schultz should have better managed Harris based on previous issues.

    Harris also was accused of using excessive force with a Taser in 2005, when he and another officer subdued a drunk-driving suspect who tried to hit and kick them, according to a police report.

    Lafayette police and officer Harris have denied the allegations and also requested the case be thrown out.

    Those requests are still pending, but Wendy Wilson's attorney, Mike Thomson, said he's "very confident the claims will survive."

    Jack Wilson said he's "very optimistic" as well.

    "My counsel is waiting to set up a trial date and get this thing set for trial as soon as possible," he said. "There is plenty of evidence to show that the Taser was either the sole cause or partly the cause of my son's death."

    In the end, Wilson said, his primary hope is to achieve justice and spread the message of the dangers of Tasers.

    "We want to make it public that Tasers can be lethal if not used properly," he said, "and we want to discourage the use of Tasers throughout the country."

  18.  

     
  19. #25

    ScratchMonkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Pablo, California
    Age
    51
    Posts
    8,637
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    We know people are sheep, so sheep on meth should make great test targets to determine if Tasers cause fibrillation in people:

    http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...ser-study-says

    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  20.  
  21. #26

    TurkishDelight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    2,149

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    "ventricular fibrillation condition, a highly abnormal heart rhythm that can become fatal.

    Can be become fatal?!

    It IS fatal! You don't go walking around town in V-Fib! You go, "My chest feels funny" and then die lol.
    |TG-X|Turkish


  22.  
  23. #27


    CallousDisregard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    [RGG]MasterCaution
    Posts
    1,115
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    The core issue isn't the Taser though is it ?
    It's the idea that I don't really have to obey a cop if I don't agree with him/her.
    Tasers will be abused by the police, just like everything else but I'd rather be Tased than have my shoulder dislocated or my wrist broken.

    When she refused to leave the car, what should the officers have done ?
    Call a hostage negotiator ?
    One man gathers
    what another man spills
    _____________________
    Fearlessly, the idiot faced the crowd
    Smiling

    did you ever wonder why we
    Had to run for shelter when the
    Promise of a brave, new world
    Unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?

  24.  

     
  25. #28

    snooggums's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kansas - armpit of the USA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    4,801

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Quote Originally Posted by CallousDisregard View Post
    The core issue isn't the Taser though is it ?
    It's the idea that I don't really have to obey a cop if I don't agree with him/her.
    Tasers will be abused by the police, just like everything else but I'd rather be Tased than have my shoulder dislocated or my wrist broken.

    When she refused to leave the car, what should the officers have done ?
    Call a hostage negotiator ?
    The same thing they have done for the decades before they had tazers, decide to wait it out or force her out. A tazer should not be used in a situation where they wouldn't fire a gun or strike the person with a club. It is an alternative to lethal action, not a cattle prod.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  26.  
  27. #29


    CallousDisregard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    [RGG]MasterCaution
    Posts
    1,115
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Define " force " since you have said this situation doesn't call for a nightstick, what kind of force should they be allowed to use because "waiting her out" is simply ridiculous.
    One man gathers
    what another man spills
    _____________________
    Fearlessly, the idiot faced the crowd
    Smiling

    did you ever wonder why we
    Had to run for shelter when the
    Promise of a brave, new world
    Unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?

  28.  
  29. #30

    mp40x's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Georgetown, KY
    Age
    40
    Posts
    1,276
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Tasers back in the news?

    Quote Originally Posted by CallousDisregard View Post
    Define " force " since you have said this situation doesn't call for a nightstick, what kind of force should they be allowed to use because "waiting her out" is simply ridiculous.
    Let's let the judge that dissented in the case answer that:

    The majority's opinion outraged Judge Marsha Berzon, who called it "off the wall."

    "I fail utterly to comprehend how my colleagues are able to conclude that it was objectively reasonable to use any force against Brooks, let alone three activations of a Taser, in response to such a trivial offense," she wrote.

    She argued that under Washington law, the officers had no authority to take Brooks into custody: Failure to sign a traffic infraction is not an arrestable offense, and it's not illegal to resist an unlawful arrest.

    Berzon said the majority's notion that Brooks obstructed officers was so far-fetched that even the officers themselves didn't make that legal argument. To obstruct an officer, one must obstruct the officer's official duties, and the officers' only duties in this case were to detain Brooks long enough to identify her, check for warrants, write up the citation and give it to her. Brooks' failure to sign did not interfere with those duties, she said.

    Furthermore, Brooks posed no apparent threat, and the officers could not have known how stunning her would affect the fetus, or whether it might prompt premature labor — another reason their actions were inexcusable, Berzon said.

    Brooks' lawyer, Eric Zubel, said he would ask the 9th Circuit to rehear the case.

    "This is outrageous — that something like this could happen to a pregnant woman, in front of an elementary school, at 8:30 in the morning, to someone who posed no threat whatsoever," he said.


  30.  

     

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts


  
 

Back to top