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Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero - Originally Posted by snooggums The concept of the tyranny of the majority doesn't have anything
  1. #211

    SilentSunshine's Avatar

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
    The concept of the tyranny of the majority doesn't have anything to do with the minority's opinion of the the majority's decisions.
    If the majority includes everyone, can we call it tyranny? Nope. Then it is dependent on a minority being tyrannized over, and their opinion on it matters (by grouping them as "minority" one assumes they are in disagreement). I don't know if you were just playing around with words for something to say, or what.


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  3. #212

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Opinion doesn't matter, it isn't a play on words and it doesn't matter how many are in the majority. Tyranny of the majority is stepping on the rights of the minority and it doesn't matter what someone's opinion on those rights is.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  5. #213

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    background on the boogey-man: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/ny...pagewanted=all


    As the saying goes, "Stand in the middle of road, and you get hit by by cards driving both directions"

    |TG-12th|WhiskeySix

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  7. #214

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/op...22kristof.html

    the proposed community center is not just an issue on which Sarah Palin and Osama bin Laden agree. It is also one in which opponents of the center are playing into the hands of Al Qaeda.
    While reading replies to Kristof's article on his Facebook page, I came across this link, about what it means to be an American, and the need to protect unpopular minorities.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w03tJ3IkrM

    For those on Facebook:

    http://www.facebook.com/kristof
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Enjoyed the video Scratch. But I'm sorry inform you that, by Godwin, you've lost the thread.
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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman1011395 View Post
    Enjoyed the video Scratch. But I'm sorry inform you that, by Godwin, you've lost the thread.
    I'm afraid that I've been sent to inform you that, by wrongly referencing Godwin's Law, you've lost the thread.

    For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread.
    Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
    Anger is a gift - Malcolm X


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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    I do think the video would be as valid even if it never mentioned Nazis. It's about manipulating fear of other minorities and how if you fall for that manipulation, you get screwed out of the promises made by the manipulators in the end.

    So we see people calling for suppression of Islam, not realizing that the power they grant government to do so will later be used to suppress their own minority.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- misattributed to Voltaire
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire#Misattributed
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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  15. #218

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    In case you guys missed this video from the Mosque protest. This comment is from the guy who posted it on Youtube.

    A man walks through the crowd at the Ground Zero protest and is mistaken as a Muslim. The crowd turns on him and confronts him. The man in the blue hard hat calls him a coward and tries to fight him. The tall man who I think was one of the organizers tried to get between the two men. Later I caught up with the man who's name is Kenny. He is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero. We discussed what a scary moment that was for him. I told him that I hoped it did not ruin his day.


    Apparently, being black and wearing a skull cap is enough for an angry crowd of racist idiots to attack you for being Muslim.

    Ron Paul has now spoke out against the opposition to the Mosque.

    Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque!

    Congressman Ron Paul today released the following statement on the controversy concerning the construction of an Islamic Center and Mosque in New York City:

    Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

    It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

    The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

    Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

    Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

    In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

    They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

    The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

    The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

    Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

    This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

    There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

    If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

    The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

    Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

    Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

    It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

    The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.

    The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

    This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

    We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

    Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.
    This proves to me, once again, that Ron Paul is a scarce voice of reason in a sea of spineless morons. Even when it costs him politically, and believe me, he lost a lot of support for taking this position.


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  17. #219


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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    I do think the video would be as valid even if it never mentioned Nazis. It's about manipulating fear of other minorities and how if you fall for that manipulation, you get screwed out of the promises made by the manipulators in the end.

    So we see people calling for suppression of Islam, not realizing that the power they grant government to do so will later be used to suppress their own minority.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- misattributed to Voltaire
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire#Misattributed
    I will be shocked if any powers granted to the federal government are used to suppress Christian extremism in the United States, given how heavily the opposition to Islam in the US is a front for racism and xenophobia.

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by mp40x View Post
    The Daily Show did a piece about the Ground Zero Mosque yesterday, it's hilarious.

    The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode
    Another relevant Daily Show episode:

    The Daily Show (Full episode. Rod Blagojevich interview absolutely worth watching as well.)

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  21. #221

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarfignuggen View Post
    Another relevant Daily Show episode:

    The Daily Show (Full episode. Rod Blagojevich interview absolutely worth watching as well.)
    For people who are Media Matters averse/ "The Daily Show is a comedy skit" people, heres one from a Yahoo Business blog

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...mosque-planner

    Indeed, as none other than Rupert Murdoch's New York Post reported last May, the Kingdom Foundation, al-Waleed's personal charity, has donated a total of $305,000 to Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow, a leadership and networking project sponsored jointly by two of Rauf's organizations, the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative. Al-Waleed owns a 7 percent, $2.3 billion stake in News Corporation. Likewise, News Corporation owns a 9 percent, $70 million stake — purchased in February — in Rotana, Al-Waleed's Saudi media conglomerate. Put another way: Rupert Murdoch and Fox News are in business, to the tune of billions of dollars, with one of the "Terror Mosque Imam's" principal patrons.

    Also, this was just like, 2 days ago.
    RIYADH: Rotana Holding Chairman Prince Alwaleed headed recently a board of directors meeting attended by News Corporation executives.

    Last edited by Bisclaveret; 08-25-2010 at 07:37 AM.

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  23. #222

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    And if this Accuracy in Media article (a conservative-leaning thing like Media Matters) is to be believed, he's not merely a passive investor.

    http://www.aim.org/aim-report/pro-mu...-news-channel/

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  25. #223


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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    I am honestly forced to renounce my previous position on the location the Cor..I mean Park51 mosque.
    I make this renunciation based on nothing more than pure self-interest.
    The 20-somthing Yemeni who owns the local corner store told me it doesn't make any difference where they pray.
    .............and since he routinely gives me credit for smokes and beer( my primary reason for resistance to Sharia law) I am compelled to follow my aforementioned self-interest and side with the man who provides me with what is important to me.
    One man gathers
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    Had to run for shelter when the
    Promise of a brave, new world
    Unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?

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  27. #224

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by CallousDisregard View Post
    I am honestly forced to renounce my previous position on the location the Cor..I mean Park51 mosque.
    I make this renunciation based on nothing more than pure self-interest.
    The 20-somthing Yemeni who owns the local corner store told me it doesn't make any difference where they pray.
    .............and since he routinely gives me credit for smokes and beer( my primary reason for resistance to Sharia law) I am compelled to follow my aforementioned self-interest and side with the man who provides me with what is important to me.
    :
    Oh no you don't. Come back to the discussion at hand. No running off to another room and bringing in Mr. Strawman. We're discussing FoxNews and their part-owner, bin Talal. If FoxNews is so worried about where the funding for Cordoba House was coming from, why don't they just ask the guy who helps pay their salaries?

    It's more to the point that by Fox News' own admission, accepting money from this pro-Sunni, pro-Wahabbist "radical islam supporter" is accepting terrorist money. Yet it's okay for them to do it, because? By thier own admission, according to them, they are sponsoring terror. If indeed Fox had reason to believe he was such a horrible man, they shouldn't be in bed with him.

    Stewart simply pointed out that if receiving money from the prince made an organization a terrorist front, then Fox, which has also been funded by the prince, must also be a terrorist group, by their own logic.

    Also, maybe if they hadn't crowed about this for the past few days and told people to "follow the money" it wouldn't have blown back in their face like this, eh?
    Last edited by Bisclaveret; 08-25-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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  29. #225

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    Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

    Man Is Held in Anti-Muslim Stabbing of Cabdriver

    A cabdriver was attacked by a knife-wielding passenger who made anti-Muslim remarks on Tuesday evening, the police said.

    The passenger, Michael Enright, 21, of Brewster, N.Y., hailed the cab at Second Avenue and East 24th Street around 6 p.m. Tuesday, the police said. Twenty blocks north, they said, he slashed and stabbed the 43-year-old driver in his throat, face and arm.

    The driver, identified by the New York Taxi Workers Alliance as Ahmed H. Sharif, 43, stopped the cab and approached a police officer on Third Avenue near 42nd Street. Mr. Enright was arrested at the scene.

    According to the taxi workers alliance, Mr. Sharif’s fare started out the ride asking him in a friendly way if he was Muslim, whether he was observing Ramadan, and how long he had been in the United States.

    After falling silent for a few minutes, the passenger began cursing and screaming, and then yelled, “Assalamu Alaikum. Consider this a checkpoint,” and slashed Mr. Sharif across the neck, then on the face from his nose to his upper lip, the alliance said.
    A byproduct of all the anti-Muslim hatred recently? Who knows, it's not good.


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