Re: Mosque to be built near New York's ground zero

**Hambergler** · 07-15-2010, 01:10 AM

There are hundreds of mosques in NYC. Puuuullleezzz who cares if it's one block or ten blocks. If they wanted to build it right on ground zero, then we would have a problem.

The people who are fighting this mosque feel that their religion is superior to Islam and they are trying to use 9/11 as evidence that Islam is evil. At best this is competition for eternal salvation, at worst it's religious conceit, ignorance or racism. Islam is not the problem, it's extremists on either side. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims living in NYC. The opponents are saying is that they are not welcome 2 blocks from ground zero. Disgusting.

**KoopaTroopa** · 07-15-2010, 01:13 AM

If their intention is to spread peace, love, harmony, and goodwill, why are they forcing - fighting - their agenda onto a city that - apparently - does not wish for it to be built?

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...-97602569.html
Detailed poll statistics: http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473

You don't start on the path to goodwill by taking a gigantic **** in someone's soup.

Also, I'd like to address the blanket accusation that anyone who is opposed to this is some sort of racist, backwoods, Bible-thumping cretin. Although the video is ridiculous, the poll I linked above shows the ground level opinion to be more varied. Even amongst the section of those polled that viewed Islam in a favorable light were split in this matter. Taking this into consideration, let's stop insinuating that anyone opposed to this measure is a racist/bigot/hates Muslims. OK?

**Hambergler** · 07-15-2010, 01:49 AM

I'm a New Yorker and I can tell you that there is plenty of racism in NY. I grew up a few blocks from the world trade center. There is no path to good will needed because Muslim lawyers, doctors, teachers, restaurateurs, cab drivers living in NY did not do anything to NY or America. NOTHING. Why should they be punished for what some psycho maniacs from a far away country did. How about a falafel stand? Is that allowed near ground zero? Why don't we just tell anyone who is brown or has a long beard that they cannot come within six and a half blocks of ground zero. Anyone who has ill will towards Muslims because the actions of a few has developed racism. Just because a lot of people feel that way does not make it any less racist.

**ForGlory&Pain** · 07-15-2010, 01:57 AM

I'm not sure how another "church" being built is any help, but to deny them the right to is asinine.

The intent by the founders as a gesture of goodwill, interaction and peace is noble. But it's still just a "church", lets not think it's going to be the Noah's ark of reconciliation or a hotbed of extremism here. 10 years from now it'll just be another building downtown. I really hope they do something spectacular architecturally.

Taking this into consideration, let's stop insinuating that anyone opposed to this measure is a racist/bigot/hates Muslims. OK?

The converse of this is also a concern, we're big boys here and can interpret the distinction. Anyone who is for this measure is not a terrorist-loving america-hating 911 denier after all.

**Kwalc** · 07-15-2010, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by SilentSunshine

Really, more than actual threats against my country? We cannot tolerate Muslim extremism that holds a literal view of the Qur'an. One can find lots of sayings in there that are encouraging violence towards non-Muslims, if taken plainly.

There's the question of taste. If these are all people who base their religion non-literally upon that book, one would think it best to use a place more distant from where others, who call themselves by the same name, have shed lots of literal blood.

Who said anything about extremists? you're missing the point. To stop muslims building a mosque because a few attacked America is the same as stopping the catholics to build churches because of all the child sex allegations. It is just not right.

**Flarfignuggen** · 07-15-2010, 03:25 AM

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

Sounds like a good thing to me. An Islamic cultural education center seems like a very good use of space, heck, the proximity seems like a bonus.

If it were explicitly only for religious purposes, then I might think they're performing real-life trolling. Based on the goal descriptions, it sounds like the equivalent to a community center in a low-income, high-crime area.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-15-2010, 04:47 AM

Ferris's two cents:
Excellent. I hope the mosque is built and the attendees fully practice their faith. They have just as much right to as anyone. These people did nothing wrong. They are no more to blame than modern catholics are to blame for the spanish inquisition. Anyone harboring even the slightest discontent at the idea can, as of now, block me because I have no desire to speak with people who are incapable of differentiating their hate and bigotry between a few stupid individuals who committed a horrible atrocity and an entire culture who has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Hate and bigotry are borne from idiocy and a severe lack of educating and understanding. Its how 5 year olds think and it is entirely what is wrong with the entire world today. Hate, bigotry, racism, prejudice, all of these things. Against homosexuals. Against muslims. Against races, cultures, creeds, countries, classes. Its all the biggest ball of stupid that could have ever been conceived of. The only hate we should have is the hate of stupid. If we all hated stupid, we could eradicate the problem by educating, understanding and equalizing. But unfortunately, the stupid refuse to realize that they are so, and they continue to spread their propaganda to the weak minded and uneducated, who eat it up and follow along without ever taking the time to see beyond the lines of their prejudice.

EDIT: and to the idea that the sentiment is wrong, please, show me otherwise. I looked at the polls posted. I looked at the reasons people were giving for not wanting it there. It takes a modicum of common sense to look through the veil, but the reasons are the same. as for why they want it there? because they're being told no. thats human nature. you tell a kid not to touch the hot stove, he's going to touch it just to spite being told not to. same thing here. furthermore, if it was a catholic church or buddhist temple or jewish temple being put up there, nobody would have said word one.

**KoopaTroopa** · 07-15-2010, 06:05 AM

Uh, well, that's the point of the whole uproar, Ferris. An Islamic center of worship is being built in a place that overlooks a giant crater created by radicalized members of the Islamic faith. Why would anyone comment on the building if it were Jewish/Buddhist/Christian/blah/whatever? There'd be no correlation unless the complainer's problem was with religion in general.

**KoopaTroopa** · 07-15-2010, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

I'm a New Yorker and I can tell you that there is plenty of racism in NY. I grew up a few blocks from the world trade center. There is no path to good will needed because Muslim lawyers, doctors, teachers, restaurateurs, cab drivers living in NY did not do anything to NY or America. NOTHING. Why should they be punished for what some psycho maniacs from a far away country did. How about a falafel stand? Is that allowed near ground zero? Why don't we just tell anyone who is brown or has a long beard that they cannot come within six and a half blocks of ground zero. Anyone who has ill will towards Muslims because the actions of a few has developed racism. Just because a lot of people feel that way does not make it any less racist.

But this isn't an agenda for "Muslim lawyers, doctors, teachers, restaurateurs, cab drivers living in NY". New York already has mosques. Park51 or whatever it is called now is an initiative to somehow promote a peaceful bridge between the Western and the Muslim world (I share cynicism with Glory&Pain over the effectiveness of a YMCA-like building supposedly healing all wounds between our cultures).

The contest of wills over this proposed building seems to be spawning anything but peace.

**Kwalc** · 07-15-2010, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Gill

Uh, well, that's the point of the whole uproar, Ferris. An Islamic center of worship is being built in a place that overlooks a giant crater created by radicalized members of the Islamic faith. Why would anyone comment on the building if it were Jewish/Buddhist/Christian/blah/whatever? There'd be no correlation unless the complainer's problem was with religion in general.

what about all the priests that molest children? dont see anyone opposing a church being built anywhere

**KoopaTroopa** · 07-15-2010, 06:24 AM

Are you trolling?

**KoopaTroopa** · 07-15-2010, 06:28 AM

My views, since I haven't explicitly said them:

Build the mosque. There are no zoning laws or whatever being broken. It's within their right. The location - while a focal point of anger - is irrelevant.

I'm not at all certain what effect this will actually have towards bridging the divide between Muslim and Christian worlds. The enmity between our cultures is millennia-old. To me, the act of building this mosque is only polarizing the matter further.

**snooggums** · 07-15-2010, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Gill

Are you trolling?

No, his point is valid, if the same logic was followed for Catholics there should be an uproar if a church is built within two blocks of a school. Opposing this church because someone can't differentiate between the religion and a few extremists who did something that was blamed on their church is ignorant. The 911 attacks were politically based and were a retaliation for US involvement in the middle east, not because of any teaching of Islam. Stop blaming Islam.

911 was not an attack based on the Muslim religion. Yes, if someone is opposed to this church because they think it was based on the Muslim religion they are ignorant and prejudiced.

**CallousDisregard** · 07-15-2010, 09:52 AM

Well I don't religious people.
I do like women.
Therefore religious people who treat their women badly fall to a lower category.
I like freedom, so therefore religions that limit freedom fall even further down the ladder.
I don't want any more mosques, churches or temples built anywhere but naming a Islamic cultural center after an Islamic wartime victory while placing said complex within shouting distance of the grave of 2,795 people, killed by extremists of the aforementioned religion is offensive to me and if that means you are going to cross me off your "holiday event" list, so be it.

**mp40x** · 07-15-2010, 10:00 AM

Well, one thing's for sure, the GOP have yet another midterm election wedge issue, and a big one at that.

The placement of this cultural center is almost certainly carefully conceived and political, just as some of the opposition to it is political. It would be interesting to see who exactly funded this plan - speaking toward the foreign investment aspect, but then you would be opening the door to saying that all religious buildings erected in the US should be examined to see where the money came from. That is not really plausible, and shows a double standard, as a Jewish or Christian center erected on the same site would not draw any opposition at all.

The man behind the Cordoba Initiative, Feisal Abdul Rauf, has drawn the ire of the conservative blogosphere. Where they say he advocated sharia, was linked to the Gaza flotilla, and that he insinuated the US may be partially responsible for 9/11 - because of our foreign policy. All of this is consistent with their narrative that the placement of this center is an attack against the very soul of America, by Islam. Which I'm not really agreeing with.

The proximity of the center to Ground Zero is questionable though, and it's clearly political in nature - you could argue that a Japanese cultural center next to the Pearl Harbor Memorial might be in poor taste. But in the end, I'm not opposed to the center being there, because it would be un-American for city or state government to pick and choose where religious buildings could be placed. Something I'm not in favor of is tearing down the 154-year-old building that is already there, this is just because I like old buildings and think they should be preserved more times than not. If the New York Landmarks Preservation Commission does approve the project, they should make it contingent on the preservation and renovation of the existing building.

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