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Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Islam - You are aware that after Reformation the Klan was heavily against Catholics (Wafer-worshippers, Papists, etc)
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08-24-2010, 12:29 PM #46
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Re: Islam
You are aware that after Reformation the Klan was heavily against Catholics (Wafer-worshippers, Papists, etc) and Jews, and tried to spread "good Protestant values", right Silent?
Go look up the Pillar of Fire Church, Klansmen: Guardians of Liberty, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_White
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08-24-2010, 12:45 PM #47
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Re: Islam
But the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" verse is a much later addition to the bible. It was not included in the original text and was added centuries after the death of Jesus. Basically, unless you consider that to be added due to divine intervention, you really don't have a point.
Originally Posted by SilentSunshine
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08-24-2010, 03:06 PM #48
Re: Islam
To tell the truth, I'm not much interested in the KKK. When I speak of Christianity or Islam, I'm willing to overlook those crazies who use it. To get an idea of what the main points of a religion are, I look at their book, and what the people who are trying to consistently live by the book are doing. Religious texts are often rife with contradictions, so it's not like an outsider can pick any one interpretation and declare it "pure." There's the matter of choosing which verses to hold over other ones. Originally Posted by Bisclaveret
From what I've read and heard on the Islamic way, the method of figuring out what is superior in the texts is to go by what was written more recently. The middle of this video talks about that. During the life of Mohammed, he became more opposed to other religions as he had new revelations. The earliest written portions were nicer, and got more violent towards his end. That's why giving another "600 years" to the religion is an idea that doesn't thrill me. By all accounts I've heard Jesus wasn't violent. Beginning half a century after that religious figure, you'd think the next big spiritual guy would already be ahead of that. But no... it's more barbaric.
Calling racism a Christian thing is much less accurate than calling female circumcision an Islamic thing. Neither originated with the religion, but numerous people in those religions have latched onto them. For example, in Yemen, a nation where you must be a Muslim to hold office - 75% of girls are cut before they're 2 weeks old. If you can say that doesn't mean anything... <sigh>
Nah, it's there in the book that most people following the NT read. That makes it a valid point. You could argue over every word in each translation, each addition, whatever... it doesn't really matter to me. Originally Posted by Buckets
"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-24-2010, 08:32 PM #49
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Re: Islam
It does not matter, the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. You can't have the Christian Bible without the old testament, whether it's there to provide context or whatever, it's still apart of the book. If you wish to call the Old Testament not part of the bible fine argue semantics all day, my point is that people who read the bible and call themselves Christians will kill based on the word of God. No ifs ands or buts. The Klu Klux Klan order is a Christian order, like it or not, any statistics involving them involves Christians. Originally Posted by SilentSunshine
Let's not forget the Christian Crusades. There have been far more Christian killings than Muslim killings.
If you really have a problem with the Muslims building a church in that location, talk to the people who sold the land. Tough luck they have as much right to be there as anyone else.
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08-25-2010, 09:10 AM #50
Re: Islam
There is another thread about the victory mosque. Originally Posted by Sirusblk
This thread is about Islam
But, as usual, despite the power of Google, you can not or will not discuss Islam.
Let's not forget the Christian Crusades. There have been far more Christian killings than Muslim killings.
can you provide something that vaguely resembles proof of that claim ?One man gathers
what another man spills
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did you ever wonder why we
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08-25-2010, 11:06 PM #51
Re: Islam
Originally Posted by CallousDisregard
If an Imam said it, it must be true. lol. Originally Posted by Imam Rauf
Anyway... with regard to the OT, NT discussion: let's consider this - portions of the OT (especially the ones quoted) were written up to 1500 years before Christ or anyone called "Christian" walked the earth. What if the most violent portions of the Islamic religious texts were written a thousand years before Mohammed? Since they're not, we can't really make an analogy. Now, as far as I know there's not a written rule in the Bible that everything written later supersedes what was written before. If there was, on that alone, a rational person would consider Christianity more reasonable than Islam. The violent portions of the Qu'ran were some of the later portions, whereas the worst Bible verses were very early.
Because there is no "most recent is always best" rule in the Bible, its followers have to try and take it all as literally as possible. There are contradictions, and each sect deals with them differently. With the prominent repetition in the NT of "you are not under the law," "old things are passed away," and such sayings, Sirus, you are wrong to imagine that a Christian will take an OT verse, written specifically to Jewish people, for the Jewish "promised land" and kill, during the "NT era," based upon it. I think that should be the end of the story, unless you don't grasp that yet.
"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-26-2010, 01:18 AM #52
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Re: Islam
Hmm, except apparently, some prominent Christians don't agree with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOsYSwNrlBo
Keep watching.
(Quoting the crazy people, because, yeah, it proves a point in this thread).
And..., to quote and respond to your quote,
Yeah, well, I don't trust these nutjobs for a second. Same way I don't trust Al Queda.you are wrong to imagine that a Christian will take an OT verse, written specifically to Jewish people, for the Jewish "promised land" and kill, during the "NT era," based upon it. I think that should be the end of the story, unless you don't grasp that yet.
Do or do not, there is no try....
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08-26-2010, 08:35 AM #53
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Re: Islam
Clearly the US has killed more Muslims than Al Queda has killed non-muslims based on the death tolls of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Is it a good comparison? Not really, but that doesn't make the statement by the Imam false.
Sirusblk already explained why snipping off the parts of Christianity that you don't like because they are the "part that comes before Christ" isn't a valid argument. It is still part of Christianity and is used by many Christians to justify their beliefs, such as the discrimination against gays, even if you don't.Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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08-26-2010, 11:19 AM #54
Re: Islam
Is that "Muslim blood" on our hands? It's not on mine. I don't think it's on the soldiers or other average Americans. If the wars were unjustified, as they very well might be IMO, then there are appointed data-dispensers and decision-makers responsible. The United States as a body is not, since they don't believe in unjust slaughter. Al Qaida, as a whole, is, because they do. And, in the Imam's eyes, are there any "innocent non-Muslims?" j/k.
Of course I don't use it, I'm just saying that people who are trying to follow it rationally won't ever kill innocents based on it. I'm not attempting to justify any crazies, of any persuasion. Originally Posted by snooggums
Another interesting thing to note is that the Muslims who are, shall I say progressive, or maybe modern (the ones who don't believe the Qu'ran on not "taking Christians or Jews for friends," say they hold Jesus as a prophet, and parts of the OT, adjusting for Ishmael being the chosen child and so on. So, can Islam possibly be on equal, objectively-viewed footing, when they accept the Jewish/Christian texts and add more violent views on top?
"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-26-2010, 12:13 PM #55
Re: Islam
To be a Christian is to be "Christlike." Modern day American so-called Christians are more politically motivated and hate-mongerers than they are Christian. The Old Testament, in my opinion, has some life lessons - especially the book of Proverbs, but is largely irrelevant. And, it's not something that any rational person should use as a guideline or as text to live by as a Christian. As you said, it is OT law, and Christ made that law irrelevant. Originally Posted by SilentSunshine
People who consider themselves Christian should really only use the NT Gospels and the words of Christ as their guideline. You know, concentrate on the red words. The rest of the NT, including the letters from Paul, the general letters, church history, and prophecy make for interesting reading, but should not be used as anything remotely close to a guideline.
The Christian-right in America has made a mockery of the teachings of Christ. Many of them - guys like John Hagee - including Zionists are zealots, not unlike radical Islamics. The only difference is they have governments and armies that support their agenda. If radical Christians and Zionists didn't have these power structures that support their agenda, they just might engage in terrorist acts like the radical Muslims to achieve their goals.
Basically, you have two radical far-right elements that are not representative of the two religions as a whole. But, they speak very loudly, and often drown out the many sensible moderates from both sides.
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08-26-2010, 12:53 PM #56
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Re: Islam
Ah, Christ. Hagee. My grandma used to listen to him all the time, my mom's been getting into him lately, too.
So lets see, according to Silent, Hagee should be following the NT's teachings almost exclusively. What cites does he pull out, in that one 6 minute segment.
Daniel, chapter 12: Old Testament
Matthew: New Testament
Zechariah 14:12 : Old Testament
Now, the Zechariah verse is sort of misleading. The bible speaks, in chapter 12-14 (the second Oracle of the LORD) about the nation of Israel. Not specifically so much the end-times, but what would happen to people who went against the LORD and Israel.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm
Similarly, the Book of Daniel has a lot of problems, being that it's generally agreed that the book was written much after the time of Daniel (in the realm of around 500+ years) most likely during the reign of the Maccabees. A lot of the writing seems to be about stuff that had already happened. This doesn't stop a lot of the end-times fundamentalist churches from using the latter parts of the book in thier sermons though.
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08-28-2010, 03:28 AM #57
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Re: Islam
I'm comparing two religions. How is Islam any different from any other religion? Originally Posted by CallousDisregard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_death_toll Originally Posted by CallousDisregard
It's kinda common sense at this point. It baffles me why others would even attempt to argue the counter. Look at how many religious wars in general there are, Islam and it's violent history is no more out of place than Christianity.
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08-28-2010, 03:36 AM #58
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Re: Islam
I'll repeat myself for the third time since you're incapable of reading and reference the Klu Klux Klan again. Have you even tried looking? It's not that difficult to find statistics. I even pointed out the crusades which ranks up there with genocides in terms of body count. As long as Christians include it in their bible then it is apart of their world. Originally Posted by SilentSunshine
However putting that aside, let's pretend that the majority of Muslims are murderous people. We cannot deny the freedom for the minority of peaceful Muslims to build a mosque and practice religion. If you're going to deny them the ability to practice their religion then I'm going to tear down the local churches around my area. After all, fair is fair right?
You guys are willfully ignorant of Islam, how about doing some actual research before you open your mouth and spew crap. I'll include a link since you guys are either lazy or choose to be arrogant:
http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm
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08-28-2010, 11:40 AM #59
Re: Islam
I'm surprised you linked to that. Under Murder, Violence, War & Oppression, it makes Islam sound like the religion of demons and Christianity pure as the new fallen snow - or rather make that the Koran is bad, the Bible good. It doesn't attempt to tell what crazies make out of the books - whether they're mental patients or KKK, etc. Originally Posted by Sirusblk
I'll repeat myself again on this - I think you're silly to bring up the Christianity of KKK, because they can't support a third of what they do with the same book "other" Christians use. If the "radicals" of Islam went beyond the Koran, believing stuff foreign to it... there would be an actual comparison, but the fact that there's not shows the inherent differences in practices of the religions.
"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-28-2010, 04:49 PM #60
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Re: Islam
Religions aren't books, books are only part of a religion. Specific groups actions also matter when referring to a religion, so the KKK is comparable to extremist Islamic factions. Originally Posted by SilentSunshine
Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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