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08-28-2010, 11:24 PM #61
Re: Islam
The KKK is not a minority by any means and it's not the sole case either. The fact is that they are Christians using the bible as an excuse to kill and murder and further their own genocidal philosophies. The truth is that website while it does give a fair representation to all other aspects it doesn't touch on the Old Testament at all which as I've referenced before still is referenced and used to justify killings by Christians. Again I'll reference the Crusades.
The point is that the book does not equal the religion, neither does going to church. We're talking about a church for a religion but that does not speak as to what the type of people who participate in attending that church or the state of their actions. The majority of Muslims do not murder. Fact. You on the contrary have not provided any proof or any facts. You don't have any proof that Muslims are all murderous or violent and you won't find any proof or statistics supporting your claim. Comparing radical minority Islam to the peaceful majority of Christianity is just asinine. Let's at least compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
Again I'm going to claim Religious Freedom on this, if I can't mess with your religion you shouldn't be able to mess with others.

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08-29-2010, 12:44 AM #62
Re: Islam
Oh my. Once again, this is the "Islam" thread, not the "victory mosque" thread. Religious freedom? Really? Should they be allowed to kill their westernized children when they get out of hand? Or do their in wives if they suspect unfaithfulness? Religious freedom has always been confined, just like my liberty to pursue happiness without religious garbage.
I never pretended all Muslims are violent, though many are to varying degrees. Ones that live in the U.S. are some of the nicest in the world, IMO. I've known just a few, and contrary to your stereotypical mindset, I've done more than check a few anti-Muslim websites. I've heard them speak about their beliefs at religious panels, at street fairs, etc. The majority of those living here are trying to adjust their religion to fit in with the rest of us, to a tolerable extent.
BTW - to set the record straight - KKK is a very tiny minority. Since they couldn't get in at Gettysburg, they had a rally in my town a few years ago and according to the papers, about two people showed up. Who ended slavery in America, anyway? That was momentous. It would be like Muslims putting an end to their abuse of women, but it's not going to happen.
My issue with Islamic law and the religion, itself, (can we define such a thing without the Qu'ran, sharia, etc?) is mostly that it's not the people using it as an excuse to kill or maim others, but people using it as a basis for their lives. I've not read the whole of the Islamic texts, I'll tell you that now. But, there are just too many passages that are diametrically opposed to freedom, and against allowing freedom to others, there that make me detest the overall religion. The examples of Islamic-dominant governments throughout the world prove my point quite thoroughly, if you care about proof.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-29-2010, 02:35 AM #63
Re: Islam
Your two statements contradict one another. I never said anyone should be allowed to kill another. But calling all Islamic people murderers and womanizers is wrong. However this seems to be the thesis of your entire debate throughout this thread.
Then why do you see fit to insult and stereotype to extreme extents? You're making broad sweeping statements to paint a very attacking picture of Islam. Worst yet none of it is supported by facts or evidence. How would you feel if I said all Christians are *******s, it's a fact I'm just not going to cite it. I'd imagine you'd be pretty offended as well as all other Christians out there.
Uh wrong. First of all I don't care what it is today. It was huge and has lasted so many generations. Today it is still strong. Just because 2 showed up to your town's rally. Love your slide comment about Muslims at the end. Real classy of you. Again unfounded stereotypes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux...temporary_Klan
Jews aren't allowed to eat pork, Vegetarians can't eat meat, Vegans can't eat eggs, I choose to watch terrible movies. What's the key element in this? Choice. No body is forcing you to be Islamic. Your opinion might be that it's restrictive sets of rules for their life. It's their choice. I wouldn't want to be Christian seems like it is 'diametrically opposed to freedom, and against allowing freedom to others', but I'm not going around and calling you a bunch of terrorist, womanizing, dumber religion following, bigots. As for your point being proven, what a load of crap if you don't mind me saying. You haven't referenced any specific issue or cited material. Not to mention your point is just plain false and still proves nothing. I would also counter that Christianity has an equally terrible track record. I'll remind you again of the Crusades and also Hitler, who was a Christian, and was influenced heavily on the anti-semite political views of the Christian Social Party. Ever hear of "Positive Christianity"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity
I'm not trying to point out that Christianity is bad. But it's no where better or worse than Islam. If you're comparing Islam at its worst to Christianity at it's best then you have a very flawed argument. I'll remind you that plenty of notable Islamic people have contributed greatly to the world, just as much as any number of Christians. And any number of Christians have committed murder because of their religion and their misguided views just as much as any Muslim.

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08-29-2010, 11:30 AM #64
Re: Islam
Christians refuse medication for their children to practice religious freedom, some children die from something that could have easily been cured. Muslims and Christians who harm others in the US are punished like everyone else, freedom to practice isn't absolute when it involves a direct impact on others.
Same thing with Christianity when it dominated governments directly in Europe, but I know you will just ignore any examples that are given because you consistently separate your utopian view of Christianity from actual practiced Christianity.My issue with Islamic law and the religion, itself, (can we define such a thing without the Qu'ran, sharia, etc?) is mostly that it's not the people using it as an excuse to kill or maim others, but people using it as a basis for their lives. I've not read the whole of the Islamic texts, I'll tell you that now. But, there are just too many passages that are diametrically opposed to freedom, and against allowing freedom to others, there that make me detest the overall religion. The examples of Islamic-dominant governments throughout the world prove my point quite thoroughly, if you care about proof.Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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08-29-2010, 10:18 PM #65
Re: Islam
Do you mind my asking you two to cite my utopian-type views on Christianity? I don't have utopian views (or even hopes - it would be unrealistic) for any people group, especially religious.
* Saudi Arabia is an Islamic nation with the Qur'an for a constitution. People living there do not have a choice whether they want to dress "modestly," drink alcohol, eat pork products, etc. The religion is forced upon all, even the Muslim women & Christians who are valued at half their Muslim countrymen. Buddhist? You're only worth 1/16 the value of a person here.
* Yemen hold sharia as the source of all legislation. Homosexuality is illegal there. You might get flogged or put to death if they believe you're guilty. The government owns the major media outlets, to ensure "correct" information. I've said before what happens to the vast majority of little girls there... <sigh> I don't want to list this for almost every Islamic state, so I put it here.
* The UAE is considered quite liberal in comparison to other nations with Islam as the official religion. Sharia is held as the source of law, but isn't always applied (the brunt of it is in family court, inheritance and various select cases, from what I've read).
* Egypt sounds similar to the UAE, in governmental practice. Islam is official, and sharia is mainly applied to laws concerning family relations. Female mutilation is technically illegal now, and has "slowly declined" since 1995.
* Turkey is Islamic-dominant, but doesn't claim Islam officially. Religious education is forced. The press is highly curtailed. Amnesty International seems to think there's too much torture going on there.
* Syria is also Islamic-dominant, but not officially Islamic. Homosexuality is illegal, but you might get off with 3 years of jail if you're convicted here. Racial discrimination against the Kurds is quite prevalent politically. Four years ago, Human Rights Watch estimated there are 4000 political prisoners being held.
* The Islamic Republic of Iran?The Baha'i' in Iran don't have it very well off, to say the least.Sharia law, as interpreted in the Islamic Republic (and by many Muslims), calls for inequality of rights between genders, religions, sexual orientation, as well as for other internationally criticised practices such as stoning as a method of execution.[32] In 1984, Iran's representative to the United Nations, Sai Rajaie-Khorassani, declared the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be representing a "secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition", which could not be implemented by Muslims and did not "accord with the system of values recognized by the Islamic Republic of Iran" which would "therefore not hesitate to violate its provisions."
Dawkins feels similarly to me about Islam, only he doesn't say the wording of verses from the Qur'an encourage violent enforcement against non-believers more than other religious texts do (which is a thing I have said).
Originally Posted by And, here's how Turkey likes him

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-30-2010, 12:19 AM #66
Re: Islam
You quote the parts of the bible you like, ignore the parts you don't, write off all of the Christians who do things you don't think are Christian even though they are done by the primary Christian church at the time and even in modern societies as 'not real Christians', etc. That is what I'm referring to as your utopian view of Christianity, which has zero basis in reality.
Your data on Islamic countries in the middle east has ZERO relevance to Christianity's faults, Muslims in the US and whether they practice the violent side of their religion and pretty much any of my points. Islamic law is the same thing as Christianity's religious law in the middle ages, and Christianities impact on laws in the US. They are the same negative aspects a few hundred years apart, where in the middle east they still have religion in the courts themselves.
Blue laws on alcohol sales based on the Christian sabbath are Christian laws.
Christianity is the driving force against homosexual marriage and rights in the US, although other religions also oppose Christianity is the primary one that people are happy to brag about their bigotry.
Christianity was the driving force behind the division of the races in the US, and one of the justifications for slavery.
Christians commit terrible acts.
Islam doing the same thing doesn't make any of the points on Christianity disappear, they both do these things. Stop living in denial.Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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08-30-2010, 03:13 AM #67
Re: Islam
My quality of life in the US suffers because of Christians.


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08-30-2010, 07:17 AM #68
Re: Islam
If we want to start nitpicking countries and laws, lets start with a predominantly Christian country.
Uganda: over 82% Roman Catholic. Home of the Lord's Resistance Army/Uganda People's Democratic Christian Army terrorist group. Just last year, hacked up over 1000 people in the name of setting up a government based on the 10 Commandments. Traveled down to the DPR Congo area and killed 321 people there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makombo_massacre.
They recently had a visit by a bunch of evangelicals from the US. Then they drafted a bill last year to outlaw homosexuality.
From 5 to 8 March 2009, a workshop took place in Kampala, the capital of Uganda, that featured three American evangelical Christians: Scott Lively, an author who has written several books opposing homosexuality; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-professed former gay man who conducts sessions to heal homosexuality; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, an organisation devoted to promoting "freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ"
...
Ugandan Stephen Langa organised it, and was supported by Lively, who asserted in his workshops that homosexuality was akin to child molestation and bestiality, and causes higher rates of divorce and HIV transmission. Lively's emphasis was on the cohesion of the African family, that he said was being threatened by homosexuals looking to recruit youth into their ranks. According to Kaoma, during the conference, one of the thousands of Ugandans in attendance announced, "[The parliament] feels it is necessary to draft a new law that deals comprehensively with the issue of homosexuality and...takes into account the international gay agenda... Right now there is a proposal that a new law be drafted."Furthermore, if passed, the bill will require anyone who is aware of an offense or an offender, including individuals, companies, media organisations, or non-governmental organisations who support LGBT rights, to report the offender within 24 hours. If an individual does not do so he or she is also considered an offender and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding 250 "currency points" or imprisonment up to three years.
...
Initially, however, Buturo stated Uganda's government was determined to pass the bill "even if meant withdrawing from international treaties and conventions such as the UN's Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and foregoing donor funding", according to an interview in The Guardian.[
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08-30-2010, 11:00 AM #69
Re: Islam
If you don't think there's alcohol, whores, and porn in any Muslim nation you can think of, you're wrong. Hell, Saudi Arabia has whorehouses catering to the affluent men, populated with blonde Russian women.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blah blah blah.
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08-30-2010, 11:55 AM #70
Re: Islam
This is a joke, right? Otherwise you're quite silly as well. Check your data.
Point 1 - Islam holds Jesus, Moses, etc (the OT law is included) as approved by Allah. So, the socially bad parts of Christianity have the Islamic seal of approval.
Point 2 - The Qur'an and Hadith add many violent commands, even though there were written 2000 years or more after the violent portions of Jewish/Christian books.
Point 3 - My premise that goes farther than Dawkins, who considers Islam a "great evil," is that the texts the religion is based upon are worse. The qualifiers in the Islamic texts are such as "slay them wherever ye find them," "those who believe fight," and "strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" sound very literal and not allegorical.
Point 4 - The nations that have a great majority* of Muslims are among the least free in the world today. It might be because the religion makes people enjoy such governance or simply not resist.
Point 5 - Although some Christian/Jewish influences have been harmful, one of, if not the the freest nation that ever existed began with thoroughly Christian roots. The majority of the U.S. still claims Christianity, yet homosexuality is not illegal in any state, the media is not kept on a short leash or owned by the government, males, females, Buddhists, Muslims and Christians are all considered equal persons under the law. Christianity is not an official religion or the primary source of law, despite majority status. In short, I'm glad Islam did not contribute heavily to the founding of the U.S.
*I use the term majority to mean the greatest portion, and often more than half. Sirus seems to confuse "minority" with "majority," so I thought I'd clarify what I mean.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-30-2010, 01:00 PM #71
Re: Islam
As opposed to... Armenia, Georgia, Bolivia (admittedly calmed down since the mid 80s), Cyprus, etc, which all have Christianity as recognized state religions.
Heck, Buddhism must be especially bad, what with Thailand and Cambodia having it as the official religion and the majority.
Because surely having the Constitution (the first amendment, even!) and Bill of Rights written the way they are does not exclude things like that from happening. Otherwise we would have to have statewide Propositions to rewrite constitutional laws and Amend these things.Point 5 - Although some Christian/Jewish influences have been harmful, one of, if not the the freest nation that ever existed began with thoroughly Christian roots. The majority of the U.S. still claims Christianity, yet homosexuality is not illegal in any state, the media is not kept on a short leash or owned by the government, males, females, Buddhists, Muslims and Christians are all considered equal persons under the law. Christianity is not an official religion or the primary source of law, despite majority status. In short, I'm glad Islam did not contribute heavily to the founding of the U.S.
Oh, wait
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08-30-2010, 10:04 PM #72
Re: Islam
You say in that post "Followers of Jesus claim that they do not live under the "old covenant." Blame the Jews for the atrocities if you want, but don't say that fundamental Christians believe in slaughter." Which is funny because fundamental Christians are the ones who are killing people. But like I said, you ignore the parts you disagree with and claim they "aren't Christian".
You are ignoring Christianity's history of the same things, plus you are adding context to the Biblical references in the post you linked above while quoting a translation to English with emphasis on terms taken out of context in this quote. You are illustrating my point that you are in denial.Point 1 - Islam holds Jesus, Moses, etc (the OT law is included) as approved by Allah. So, the socially bad parts of Christianity have the Islamic seal of approval.
Point 2 - The Qur'an and Hadith add many violent commands, even though there were written 2000 years or more after the violent portions of Jewish/Christian books.
Point 3 - My premise that goes farther than Dawkins, who considers Islam a "great evil," is that the texts the religion is based upon are worse. The qualifiers in the Islamic texts are such as "slay them wherever ye find them," "those who believe fight," and "strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" sound very literal and not allegorical.
Point 4 - The nations that have a great majority* of Muslims are among the least free in the world today. It might be because the religion makes people enjoy such governance or simply not resist.
Founded with those concepts strongly pushed by the Freemasons, who wanted to speak freely about their religious beliefs because they had been under oppression under the European Christian dominated governments including England, which had a state church. It has been a free country for worship and rights for white Christians for centuries I will agree, but it hasn't been free for gays, blacks, minority immigrants or other religions for very long at all.Point 5 - Although some Christian/Jewish influences have been harmful, one of, if not the the freest nation that ever existed began with thoroughly Christian roots. The majority of the U.S. still claims Christianity, yet homosexuality is not illegal in any state, the media is not kept on a short leash or owned by the government, males, females, Buddhists, Muslims and Christians are all considered equal persons under the law. Christianity is not an official religion or the primary source of law, despite majority status. In short, I'm glad Islam did not contribute heavily to the founding of the U.S.
As of 2010 sodomy is not illegal in US states but this is a recent change:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_lawSodomy laws in the United States were largely a matter of state rather than federal jurisdiction, except for laws governing the U.S. Armed Forces. By 2002, 36 states had repealed all sodomy laws or had them overturned by court rulings. The remaining sodomy laws were invalidated by the 2003 U.S. Supreme Court decision Lawrence v. Texas.
The court overturning religious opposition to sodomy laws that the states didn't in the last decade does not prove the US is somehow leaps and bounds in front of Islamic fundamentalist countries in regards to homosexuality. Plus, gay marriage is still repressed and actively so by Christian organizations and members, and without the courts freedoms wouldn't apply to minorities or minority religions. The civil rights movement didn't happen because everyone caught on, it had to be forced on the majority of the country. Within all of our lifetimes sodomy was illegal in the US and people went to jail for sodomy charges.
You didn't do a very good job, since as far as I remember the only majority Sirus referred to was the proportion of non-terrorist Muslims to terrorists and you seem to think that more than half of Muslims are terrorists. Here I can't tell if you mean raw numbers of Muslims or proportion of the population, but I'll bet you don't know that the raw majority of Muslims live in Asia and Africa so I'm going to guess you incorrectly meant raw numbers.*I use the term majority to mean the greatest portion, and often more than half. Sirus seems to confuse "minority" with "majority," so I thought I'd clarify what I mean.Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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08-30-2010, 11:59 PM #73
Re: Islam
Well, I must thank you for reading it again, but express my regret that you don't seem to understand it yet. I have not ignored the atrocities done in the name of God or Jesus, but have lain them aside for the purpose of this discussion, because they're not expressly called for by the religion's texts, with the exceptions of the harsh laws of the OT, which even by a cursory reading are applicable only in the theocracy. Islamic texts encourage violence much more widely. That's my issue. Is it very clear? I think it is. Feel free to quote terrible verses in the Bible comparable to slaying non-believers EVERYWHERE or cutting off all their fingers, whatever. I just haven't seen any such thing yet.
There are undoubtedly violent people all over the globe and of every religious affiliation with substance. I do tend to think more of the texts a religion is founded on, than what the individuals within the name of the religion do, because of that human propensity to violence.
Just curious: where? I've watched fundamental/wacko Muslims kill people. I know second-hand that non-mental fundamental Muslims kill people in ways that our western mindset holds as barbaric, unjust, etc.
I added nothing. The words were there, and I made the person who used it look at it again. The qualifier of "evil must be purged from Israel" is quite a different story from the bad Islamic verses commanding believers take their bigoted/violent/terroristic acts everywhere. There seems to be a "hate the God of Christians/Jews at least as much as Allah" feeling for some reason. I would just like to know why, as I haven't been able to put my finger on it yet.
And you guessed incorrectly! Because Sirus said once or twice that the KKK was not a minority, I felt the need to define what I meant by majority. Minority and majority, in general usage, are opposites. If something's not a minority, it's the majority! But, I didn't mean to reference nations where Muslims are a majority like the KKK is. :P
Almost all of the Islamic holy sites (historic and pilgrimage destinations) are in the Middle East. Most of the nations I referenced were there. It is where you'd expect the most religious Muslims to be, though not necessarily the most violent or extreme.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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08-31-2010, 03:22 AM #74
Re: Islam
Wait what? No no no. You don't get it I'm afraid. The Koran calls for just as much orders for bloodshed as the bible does. Once again, whatever religious texts say does not matter. There's a difference between theory and practice. Think of how many Christians aren't really acting 'Christian'. Let's actually compare real world statistics here, how many Muslims have actually committed murder based on their bible and how many Christians have committed murder based on their bible. You won't because it'll prove your own argument wrong and you've invested too much in this thread to accept that fact. Just because you don't like the wording in a bible is no reason to be outrageously insulting.
Like I said, religious texts are not representative of anything. Just because the Koran says this doesn't mean it actually happens. Likewise no amount of good Christians follow the bible down to the tee.
Really?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shanny..._b_209521.html
This is the very first result in a simple google search. Are you joking? You're either lazy or willfully arrogant.
Really? Or is it the fact that Israel was the holy city and thus law that applied there applied everywhere for Christians? Discounting the Old Testament simply because it applies to Israel only is such a load of BS.
There seems to be this, "It's okay to insult someone else's religion but not mine" bull**** feeling for some reason. Double standards and Hypocrisy.
I also brought up Hitler's Christian Holy War but I guess you skipped over that because it was convenient for your argument just like all the other details you carefully skip over. Murdering Muslims is by far not a majority.

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08-31-2010, 02:27 PM #75
Re: Islam
"I never said the Bible was good."
"I was raised on it...I disagreed."
"I believe that religions can be bad. I don't have use for them..."
"I wouldn't be willing, however, to say that I think the average Muslim is definitely worse than the average Christian. Does that help clarify? It is the religion itself - morals, methods of implementation, etc. with which I find great fault."
"I am one of those others that said the Bible says nasty things. In fact, I'm pretty sure I was the first to say it in this thread."
I have invested a good bit in these threads discussing Islam and Christianity, Sirus. Even though I have no expectation of getting a reasonable response from you, I thought I'd quote myself for the benefit of all.
What you have here is almost proof that people have been killed in the name of fundamental Christianity. "Fundamental" has to do with basic, or elementary principles, and so here the religious texts ought to come into play, so that one may define what the "fundamentals" of a faith constitutes. One of the slain men had an occupation of killing fetus-babies (in accordance with current law). I think the man who killed Tiller was a fundamentalist who was not mental. The other guy killing liberals sounds mental to me. Three people were killed over the past two years. Let's look at the news for the past two days : Muslims. Muslims.
Well, it's not often that Hitler is called a Christian, but I have seen pics of him coming out of a church, so yeah, I guess you're right. Racism = Christianity.I also brought up Hitler's Christian Holy War but I guess you skipped over that because it was convenient for your argument just like all the other details you carefully skip over.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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