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Discussion: General Forums / The Sandbox - Islam - Originally Posted by SilentSunshine Threatening to break cameras, actually shoving and slapping people (and their
  1. #106

    snooggums's Avatar

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    Threatening to break cameras, actually shoving and slapping people (and their property) around are all ways to provoke disturbance. Legitimate security / police would have handled any attempted disturbance in a reasonable manner.
    Do you have a link to any proof that those events occurred?
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  3. #107

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    Re: Islam

    I watched and listened to the video. I cannot ascertain the purity of the video.


    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
    something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe

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  5. #108

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    I watched and listened to the video. I cannot ascertain the purity of the video.
    Which means what? I watched the video and saw no evidence of what you claimed. Nor have I heard of any other viewpoints on the matter. What you stated was pulled out of thin air.

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  7. #109

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    I watched and listened to the video. I cannot ascertain the purity of the video.
    Furthermore, you're willfully ignoring other refutations that were brought up in that City of Dearborne refutation.

    Here's one from the Fairlane Alliance Church, the Dearborn Christian Association, etc. signed, back from last year.


    http://www.fairlanealliance.org/down...ng_acts_17.pdf

    So, let it be clear, we are not critiquing Acts 17 Apologetics on the basis of intolerance or because they were standing up to proclaim truth and expose falsehood. Our concern is that they have simply presented a contrived and false image of the actual situation here on the ground in Dearborn. That they were in conflict with the security guards had more to do with how they set out to provoke a reaction than it did with actually sharing the Gospel or refuting terror. The words of the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:15) are clear and very applicable to this situation:

    "If you're abused because of Christ, count yourself fortunate. It's the Spirit of God and his glory in you that brought you to the notice of others. If they're on you because you broke the law or disturbed the peace, that's a different matter..." The Message

    ...

    Friends, there is not at this time any overt operation of Shari'a law in force here in Dearborn. Those of us here on the ground will keep close watch! And we are committed to speaking truth. No, what we had was a group visiting our city with their own agenda, painting a picture that is neither accurate nor one with which other evangelical leaders here in town would concur. In actual fact, there is a spirit of openness here in Dearborn, with many opportunities to make Christ known clearly to our Muslim friends and neighbors. As evidence, we would simply reference the number ov very openly Christian booths at the Arab-American Festival this year. Two examples will perhaps suffice:
    [*]Directly opposite the Muslim booth where Acts 17 Aplogetics attempted to film their conversation with a man regarding a tract his group was distributing, another booth being manned by the pastor of the Arab Alliance Fellowship of Dearborn was openly sharing the Gospel with passersby. While it is the Festival's policy to grant each organization only one booth, they graciously provided the Arab Alliance Fellowship with, not 2, but 3! Over the course of three days of the conference, they distributed $10,000.00 worth of Gospel literature.

    Nearby, at yet another booth, Josh McDowell was autographing copies of his latest book, The Witness! In total, he distributed 3600 of these and gave out several thousand copies of More Than A Carpenter.
    Regrettably, you would never have known this from watching the video posted online by Acts 17 Apologetics.

    ...

    It is ironic that, though Acts 17 Apologetics believes they have taken a courageous step towards protecting us from "the slow creep" of Islam into the public domain of American life, they may actually have, by their artificial and contrived confrontation, inoculated the American public to it, should it come...
    Heres a video McDowell released with the Festival, about stuff at the Festival:


    And another, praising McDowell and a bit on how he's not been argued with, harassed, etc for distributing literature.


    Are you going to insinuate that a famous Christian apologetic, minister, etc, is lying to besmirch that small group of people?
    Last edited by Bisclaveret; 09-05-2010 at 02:21 AM. Reason: unlinked lists broke mah post!

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  9. #110

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    I watched and listened to the video. I cannot ascertain the purity of the video.
    I can summarize:

    A bunch of antagonistic jerks with cameras misrepresent events to make themselves look like they are being discriminated against. Then they make up elaborate conspiracies and blame everyone else.

    Best example:
    "They knew we had a camera, we want to ask a question. Can we ask a question."
    "Yes."

    That means you can ask a question, not you can ask a question and can video tape them also. There is a difference between observing with a camera and shoving your camera in people's faces while being a jerk.

    Also, I saw no evidence of slapping to hitting, only a few times that someone touched the camera that was in their face. No, that isn't assault any more than if I stood chest to chest to someone and they pushed me back for being in their personal space. Yes, security will threaten violence and intimidate people to leave, that's how security works since they are normally outnumbered. If they had a claim on any of that they could have easily sued the security company.
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  11. #111

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirusblk View Post
    What you stated was pulled out of thin air.
    Well.

    I certainly have not made any attempt to misrepresent anything. I'll admit I had only watched it through once, but now I've gone over it again to remind myself why I felt the way I did. I was, not shocked, I guess, but disheartened, to see the way Muslims in Michigan wanted things handled. Whenever I ran across Muslims in PA, they never smacked at anyone, made direct threats, or lied about an incident that they paricipated in. Here's what I marked down, at the times I saw things of interest.

    @ :42-45 -- Acts 17 guy "If they're telling us to stop taping, stop taping."
    Muslim man's interjection: "She can tape it." Someone else's hands are held up against the camera to obstruct taping.

    @ 2:03 -- Different Muslim man "--- turn the camera off." He says this repeatedly. Hands are held up against the camera to obstruct taping.

    @ 4:45-55 -- Security man in red says "gotta break this up" to the Acts 17 guy and young man talking. Red security man says "don't videotape me. You know where your designated area is supposed to be, so let's go."
    Man in yellow security appears to lurch towards camera and a sound like a smack occurs.

    @ 5:15 -- Someone's hand smacks the camera. As the camera turns we see another yellow-shirted security man. His hand is still quite near the camera, so that it appears he's the one who struck.

    @ 5:36 -- A yellow security man (presumably the same as @5:15) strikes camera.

    @ 5:50-53 -- Someone's voice says "I break the camera for you. Trust, I will." Red shirt says something like "Sam, Sam," as if trying to calm the man down.

    @ 6:00-40 -- Man may or may not have struck camera. Lady tells a man he can't do that, that "this is America." Yellow security man replies "I don't care," waving his arm. Pink shirted woman waves finger in that yellow-shirt man's face saying "You cannot touch her." Camera person and yellow security converse on whether pictures may be taken. Pink woman says "step away." Camera shakes. "That's assault" a woman says, pointing at a blue-shirted pedestrian who's walking along and does not refute the accusation, but says "get your camera out of my face." I think this is quite funny, since when he is first viewed in this segment, he's maybe 10 feet away. It doesn't look like the camera has been walked around, but 4 seconds later he slapped the camera that was "in his face." He must have walked up to the camera and stood uncomfortably close the the woman, if the camera ever did get near his face.

    @ 6:45 -- Acts guy accuses security men of assault. "Close the camera" is heard. "You need permission to -- tape me, you know that."[The Big Brother thread talks about privacy of this sort not being held as legally recognized, even on unquestionably "private" properties.]

    @ 7:12 & on -- Camera again stabilizes after shaking [I'm not claiming the total of 16 hits, only the ones I saw] and yellow security man strikes at Acts 17 man. Red-shirted man continually says "keep walking... or I'll make you keep walking. Trust me I will." A crowd (7-10?) yellow-shirted security people are making good the red man's promise of keeping them walking. The red man claims he never hit the camera. From what I saw, I'd be willing to trust him on that, even though he didn't seem overly concerned about the assault from the yellow men. Calls for "police, police." Some police show up. Red man says "no, we haven't" when the accusation of hitting the camera comes up.


    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
    something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe

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  13. #112

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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    I was, not shocked, I guess, but disheartened, to see the way Muslims in Michigan wanted things handled.
    Wrong. Muslims had nothing to do with it. The security guards were not Muslim and are a separate entity. The Muslims present at the event are in no way connected or responsible for the security guards' actions. I am disheartened that you after all the evidence counter to your arguments still find it right to be islamaphobic at all costs.

    Also there is no evidence of camera's being 'striked'. Forcefully being pushed away and striking are completely different and there is no direct evidence of either other than the stupid self invested commentary. Let's face it if there wasn't any 'controversy' with this movie it would not be able to stand on it's own. Speaking as a professional videographer, what they did was asinine and very unprofessional. If any real harm was done they could have pressed charges for damage of property (which they didn't) thus they don't have a leg to stand on.

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  15. #113

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    Re: Islam

    Furthermore, if they had evidence of being assaulted/battered/etc, why have they not persued legal actions? Why have they not tried to press charges against either the security guards, the fair organizers, the police, perhaps, ANYONE legally accountable? They haven't made any motions to follow up in a civilized, responsible manner, instead trying to organize public opinion for thier cause.

    This isn't the actions of anyone that can prove that what they're doing is just. I'm sure if they started trying to organize some kind of legal defense, the same people that are supporting them now would lend them money, perhaps pro-bono legal representation. Instead, they've tried to do nothing but aggrivate the populace and shriek about how they were violated.

    . I was, not shocked, I guess, but disheartened, to see the way Muslims in Michigan wanted things handled. Whenever I ran across Muslims in PA, they never smacked at anyone, made direct threats, or lied about an incident that they paricipated in.
    So once again, you are ignoring many other witnesses and videos, to concern troll and support these idiots. Stop being intentionally intellectually dishonest because you can't argue on the facts.
    Last edited by Bisclaveret; 09-05-2010 at 06:59 PM.

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  17. #114

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    Re: Islam

    Also, why didn't they ever state what their questions were? I mean if it was so important that they asked questions, you would think they would post what the questions were so others could answer it for them...
    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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  19. #115

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    Re: Islam

    In fact, they could get the ACLU involved, as the ACLU has a history of defending Christian groups rights to preech and protest in public forums.

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  21. #116

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    Re: Islam

    Back to the issue of Islam and specifically the mosque going up in New York. Colbert had a hilarious piece on it. I'm baffled at how many people can be so ignorant and still apear on the news:
    http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...que-be-kidding
    "Why are all terrorists muslim?!"
    Are you effing kidding me?!

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  23. #117

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    Re: Islam

    I was reading through the comments at the Acts 17 site and followed a reference to this site:

    http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/

    It's really amazing the level of hysteria this guy has. He's offended at organizations that extend the same kind of cultural understanding we already give to Jews and Christians to the new guys on the block, Muslims. And how dare Muslims use hate crime law designed to protect other minorities like Jews! (It's a great example of why laws against offensive speech are such a Bad Idea. Sauce for the goose, you see.)
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

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  25. #118


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    Re: Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSunshine View Post
    Well.

    I certainly have not made any attempt to misrepresent anything. I'll admit I had only watched it through once, but now I've gone over it again to remind myself why I felt the way I did. I was, not shocked, I guess, but disheartened, to see the way Muslims in Michigan wanted things handled. Whenever I ran across Muslims in PA, they never smacked at anyone, made direct threats, or lied about an incident that they paricipated in. Here's what I marked down, at the times I saw things of interest.

    @ :42-45 -- Acts 17 guy "If they're telling us to stop taping, stop taping."
    Muslim man's interjection: "She can tape it." Someone else's hands are held up against the camera to obstruct taping.

    @ 2:03 -- Different Muslim man "--- turn the camera off." He says this repeatedly. Hands are held up against the camera to obstruct taping.

    @ 4:45-55 -- Security man in red says "gotta break this up" to the Acts 17 guy and young man talking. Red security man says "don't videotape me. You know where your designated area is supposed to be, so let's go."
    Man in yellow security appears to lurch towards camera and a sound like a smack occurs.

    @ 5:15 -- Someone's hand smacks the camera. As the camera turns we see another yellow-shirted security man. His hand is still quite near the camera, so that it appears he's the one who struck.

    @ 5:36 -- A yellow security man (presumably the same as @5:15) strikes camera.

    @ 5:50-53 -- Someone's voice says "I break the camera for you. Trust, I will." Red shirt says something like "Sam, Sam," as if trying to calm the man down.

    @ 6:00-40 -- Man may or may not have struck camera. Lady tells a man he can't do that, that "this is America." Yellow security man replies "I don't care," waving his arm. Pink shirted woman waves finger in that yellow-shirt man's face saying "You cannot touch her." Camera person and yellow security converse on whether pictures may be taken. Pink woman says "step away." Camera shakes. "That's assault" a woman says, pointing at a blue-shirted pedestrian who's walking along and does not refute the accusation, but says "get your camera out of my face." I think this is quite funny, since when he is first viewed in this segment, he's maybe 10 feet away. It doesn't look like the camera has been walked around, but 4 seconds later he slapped the camera that was "in his face." He must have walked up to the camera and stood uncomfortably close the the woman, if the camera ever did get near his face.

    @ 6:45 -- Acts guy accuses security men of assault. "Close the camera" is heard. "You need permission to -- tape me, you know that."[The Big Brother thread talks about privacy of this sort not being held as legally recognized, even on unquestionably "private" properties.]

    @ 7:12 & on -- Camera again stabilizes after shaking [I'm not claiming the total of 16 hits, only the ones I saw] and yellow security man strikes at Acts 17 man. Red-shirted man continually says "keep walking... or I'll make you keep walking. Trust me I will." A crowd (7-10?) yellow-shirted security people are making good the red man's promise of keeping them walking. The red man claims he never hit the camera. From what I saw, I'd be willing to trust him on that, even though he didn't seem overly concerned about the assault from the yellow men. Calls for "police, police." Some police show up. Red man says "no, we haven't" when the accusation of hitting the camera comes up.



    One man gathers
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    _____________________
    Fearlessly, the idiot faced the crowd
    Smiling

    did you ever wonder why we
    Had to run for shelter when the
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    Unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?

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  27. #119

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    Re: Islam

    Just in case you were foolish enough to think there was a shortage of screwballs:

    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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  29. #120

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    Re: Islam

    The Westboro Babtist Church is mentally insane.




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