My reply to DdogG from another thread..

[_Ender_]

Ok well since my first reply got baleeted, I figured I would start another thread in case you missed my reply to you.

thank you for enlightening me here.... I though the birth of Jesus started CHRIST-mas..........

Actually no, it didnt. Chrismas, how its celebrated now, was started in Germany in 1521. The whole gift-giving thing was part of an ancient Babylon feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) which was celebrated on December 25th. It was basically a big party where people ate, drank, and exchanged gifts.

The Romans had a simlar celebration for the Winter Solstice, which was celebrated long before Christ came along. The Romans called their holiday "Saturnalia", which honored Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. This feastival kicked off with groups of costumed singers and dancers named "Mummers" who went from house to house entertaining their neighbors.

A lot of traditional Christmas activities have pagan originals.

No body really knows for sure when Jesus Christ was born but from biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they do agree on is that he wasnt born in December since biblical records say that shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night which would be hard to do in the middle of winter. In the year 350, Pope Julius I decleared that Christ was born on December 25th. At that time, the church was trying to convert Roman pagans (who were the majority at that time) into Christians, so they thought that giving something of importance, like Christ's birth, on the day a pagan holiday was would help convert people to the Christian faith. I guess it worked...

I should be allowed to discuss any topic I please without fear of retaliation.

Yes you should be, but you didnt answer my question. Why would you bring up your religion in a non-religious discussion?

Why would you want to talk to a bunch of non pagans about paganism?

I am not talking to non-pagans about paganism. I am in fact educating you on the history of Christmas. You said that the non-religious was stealing it away from you, yet your religious stole it from another religion.

I dont care about pagans and yet you keep talking to me about them.... the difference is, I dont complain about every pagan referring comment you make like people do when they hear a religious comment.... see, you dont have the reservations that I do because when I say God, 10 posts pop up berating me..... I dont see that about a pagan post.....

I am not talking about pagans or their faith, I'm talking about history. It just so happens that pagans are apart of it.

the bill of rights is only the part of the constitution ensuring a persons rights against acts of tyrrany....

And the 10 Commandments are 10 morals for living ones life.

One thing you missed is the Bill of Rights also ensures us of religious freedom.

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

sounds like a basic declaration of freedom there.............

Up until 1876, the word "slave" or "slavery" was never mentioned in the US Constitution but I do have some Constitutional articles that you might find interesting (I will edit them down to the point I am trying to make as not to make this post big.).

Article I Section 2 - "apart from free persons all other persons are each to be counted as three-fifths of a white person for the purpose of apportioning congressional representatives on the basis of population" (superseded by Amendment XIV, section 2)

They used the term "person" to discribe "non-whites". The majority of all "non-whites" where blacks, and of course the blacks in this country were slaves.

Article I Section 9 - "importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit persons would be permitted until 1808."

Again, "persons" meaning slaves.

I thought this one proved my point also.

Article IV Section 2 - "persons held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another" (superseded by Amendment XIII)

Basically, if a "person" escaped to another State, that state, by law, has to return that "person" to his rightful owner. If that doesnt scream "slave" then all hope is lost.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

isnt there something about heirecy and traitors in the constitution.... I mean, we do say a "Pledge of Allegiance", don't we?
It also rings of "In God we Trust" doesn't it?

It doesnt mean "traitors". It means that you cant put yourself or somebody else ahead of God himself.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

this one might be a little hard to prosecute...... but the constitution doesnt go against it.......

God isnt even mentioned in the Constitution, at all. Besides, we have that little thing called "Freedom of Speech".

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is basically the labor clause.... employees have the right to a day off....

The Constitution says nothing about giving people a day off from work.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

this is the 18th birthday thing in a near eastern ancient form.... your are a minor and subject to your parents until you yourself are an adult.

Actually, back then a woman was married by the age of 13 (no seriously, go look it up). Besides, that law you're refering too, isnt a Constitution law, its a state law.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

pretty much a direct quote there.....

&

8. Thou shalt not steal.

another direct quote.....

This isnt just a religious thing, every government and culture has these laws.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

well, this one will get you divorced, but not really a law...

Nope, not at all.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

purgery..... obstruction of justice......

Again, not a Constitutional law. If it was, I know a lot of politicians who would be behind bars.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

again, not a law, but it will keep you out of debt..........

You're right, its not a law, in fact this country is based on coverting your neighbor's crap, its called "Capitalism".

so exactly what part of the 10 commandments goes against the constitution?

All of them, unless you expect me to believe that before the 10 Commandments everybody was lying and killing.

[/quote]I see parallels. I see a lot of the ideas in the constitution in the 10 commandments..... maybe both are just the right way to go on their own and have nothing to do with each other, but following the 10 commandments will not only keep you out of legal trouble, it will also keep you out of relational ones as well.[/quote]

And I see somebody trying to make a whole lot of nothing into something. The two that could be argued where based off the 10 Commandments are laws that other cultures and governments share, who dont believe in the 10 Commandments.

The Constitution is a document that provides us with freedoms, the 10 Commandments is a document that provides people with morals on how to life their life. One has nothing to do with the other.

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by _Ender_

No body really knows for sure when Jesus Christ was born but from biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they do agree on is that he wasnt born in December since biblical records say that shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night which would be hard to do in the middle of winter.

2nd or 3rd bc, was the birth of christ according to several historians I heared on discovery channel and national geo.

[_Ender_]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

2nd or 3rd bc, was the birth of christ according to several historians I heared on discovery channel and national geo.

Yeah I know, but they dont know when exactly. Besides, he argued that since it was called "Christmas", it meant that Christ was born on December 25th, which just isnt true.

[TheFeniX]

Christmas (along with other holidays with Pagan and Christian ties) are so mainstream now, it's really a moot point. People reference Christmas with Santa more than Jesus. It's really an economics thing now. You know who seems to care more about Christmas than anyone? Wal-Mart.

These holidays are now really nothing more than an excuse to spend loads of hard-earned money to buy gifts for people. Oh yea, that and I get 2 days off of work... Hell, didn't Macy's (a department store chain for those who don't know) create Santa Clause back on the early 1900's (around 1930)?

So remember kids, while your local priest may tell you Halloween is the only "EVAL Pagan day of the devil" many religions borrow heavily from others. Where do you think we got the idea to bury our dead... well, other than the fact that it smells better than burning them...)

In the end it doesn't really matter. Give Wal-Mart a few more years and we'll all be worshiping the yellow smiley-face guy.

[H-Hour]

One thing they do agree on is that he wasnt born in December since biblical records say that shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night which would be hard to do in the middle of winter.

Well, it's November, and I'm sitting here in a t-shirt, and about 100m from me is one of the three grottos around here they say the shepherds were sleeping in, so it's not hard to imagine they'd be out in December. Now, I don't really care if that has anything to do with this whole discussion, I just thought it was a fun comment to make.

[_Ender_]

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Where do you think we got the idea to bury our dead... well, other than the fact that it smells better than burning them...)

If you saying that it was a pagan idea, you're wrong. Pagans burned their dead in a celebration of their life. As more and more pagans were converting to Christianity, the idea of burying their dead was practiced. Some pagans buried their dead with their possessions and weapons.

The reason why Christians buried their dead was because they found it disrespectful to God to burn it, since we're all created in his image.

Interesting facts: The idea of burying the body six feet under, came from 1665 when law required that they would bury victims of the Bubonic Plague "6 feet under" so it wouldnt spread. Of course it didnt work, since the plague was speard from infected fleas to humans. Now its usually 30 inches of soil to cover the dead.

BTW: The US doesnt have a law requirment for the bural of our dead, and many US states dont have one either. The only state that has anything like this is California where caskets must be cover with at least 18 inches (one and a half feet) of dirt and soil.

[_Ender_]

Originally Posted by H-Hour

Well, it's November, and I'm sitting here in a t-shirt, and about 100m from me is one of the three grottos around here they say the shepherds were sleeping in, so it's not hard to imagine they'd be out in December. Now, I don't really care if that has anything to do with this whole discussion, I just thought it was a fun comment to make.

You do know that the weather patterns have changed a lot in 2 thousand years right?

[IceCold]

Originally Posted by _Ender_

If you saying that it was a pagan idea, you're wrong. Pagans burned their dead in a celebration of their life. As more and more pagans were converting to Christianity, the idea of burying their dead was practiced. Some pagans buried their dead with their possessions and weapons.

The reason why Christians buried their dead was because they found it disrespectful to God to burn it, since we're all created in his image.

Interesting facts: The idea of burying the body six feet under, came from 1665 when law required that they would bury victims of the Bubonic Plague "6 feet under" so it wouldnt spread. Of course it didnt work, since the plague was speard from infected fleas to humans. Now its usually 30 inches of soil to cover the dead.

BTW: The US doesnt have a law requirment for the bural of our dead, and many US states dont have one either. The only state that has anything like this is California where caskets must be cover with at least 18 inches (one and a half feet) of dirt and soil.

It worries me that you know these things...

[wickerman]

I had read somewhere (and no, I don't recall where), regarding the birth of Christ, that if Joseph and Mary were traveling to pay taxes they would have had to be travelling sometime around September since October was the customary time for tax collection. Can anyone back that up?

[Nightfire]

_Ender_, after reading your description on each of the 10 commandments, i don't think what you have in mind is a solid proof to your opinion quoting "Six of the ten Commandments go directly against the Bill of Rights."

God isnt even mentioned in the Constitution, at all. Besides, we have that little thing called "Freedom of Speech".

the "freedom of speech" yes...but to a certain extent. you can't just go to a public area and shout racist comments. and would you actually want to just blab out curse words whenever you want and however you want?

The Constitution says nothing about giving people a day off from work.

..... yet it is not unconstitutional to NOT give people a day off. the sabbath day is a day where you set aside your regular labor(s) inorder to worship and give thanks to the God who provided you everyday.

Actually, back then a woman was married by the age of 13 (no seriously, go look it up). Besides, that law you're refering too, isnt a Constitution law, its a state law.

...i don't get what you're saying so i'm just gonna leave it blank X_X

"&"--_Ender_ referring to the thou shall not kill

so i have the right to kill? *oh joy
comeon, this is a given, do you really want to ask this one? unless if you're a psychotic killer, you KNOW this is bad.

Nope, not at all. referring to the thou shall not commit adultry

that i can give you credit for....but i'm not sure what you're saying there though.

All of them, unless you expect me to believe that before the 10 Commandments everybody was lying and killing........The Constitution is a document that provides us with freedoms, the 10 Commandments is a document that provides people with morals on how to life their life. One has nothing to do with the other.

the ten commandements were not primarily made so that we can follow them. it was ultimately made to show that we are hopeless and can not obey all 10 commandements and that we needed to repent and be forgiven by the merciful yet just God.

[HairyNevus]

Originally Posted by wickerman

I had read somewhere (and no, I don't recall where), regarding the birth of Christ, that if Joseph and Mary were traveling to pay taxes they would have had to be travelling sometime around September since October was the customary time for tax collection. Can anyone back that up?

That's what my mom tells me (mommy ftw). Something about the historians dug up refrences to when they took census/collected taxes.

Originally Posted by Nightfire

the "freedom of speech" yes...but to a certain extent. you can't just go to a public area and shout racist comments. and would you actually want to just blab out curse words whenever you want and however you want?

You can. Only if it falls under disturbing the peace could legal action be taken. I suppose people could sue for causing distress or something also... And, for the most part, I do want to be able to cuss someone out whenever and frequently have.

Originally Posted by Nightfire

so i have the right to kill? *oh joy
comeon, this is a given, do you really want to ask this one? unless if you're a psychotic killer, you KNOW this is bad.

I think Ender was saying that every culture has laws against these and it's nothing special that the constitution and the 10 Commandments both have them.

Originally Posted by Nightfire

the ten commandements were not primarily made so that we can follow them. it was ultimately made to show that we are hopeless and can not obey all 10 commandements and that we needed to repent and be forgiven by the merciful yet just God.

Much different from the Jewish teaching. The Ten Commandments was God's renewal of the Covenant with the Israelite people and was actually a sign of their freedom. But I don't like getting into that stuff.

[_Ender_]

Originally Posted by IceCold

It worries me that you know these things...

Being a former Pagan (or a none practicing pagan, however you see it) I like to know what my religion is about, more importantly, I like to know the history of the religion and paganism has a lot of history.

Originally Posted by NiFi

..... yet it is not unconstitutional to NOT give people a day off. the sabbath day is a day where you set aside your regular labor(s) inorder to worship and give thanks to the God who provided you everyday.

Its not a Constitutional admendment, end of story. Besides, and I cant stress this enough, NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN!!!!

so i have the right to kill? *oh joy
comeon, this is a given, do you really want to ask this one? unless if you're a psychotic killer, you KNOW this is bad.

Thank you for completely misinterpreting what I said.

...i don't get what you're saying so i'm just gonna leave it blank X_X

During those times, and even before those times, girls of child barring age were traded to people of power for various things (wealth, power, respect... sheep..). Then there was the arrange marriages (which are still practiced today by some Arab nations) when a girl of child barring age is arrange to marry somebody, its to either boost her fathers power or for her father to gain something (land, money, respect, whatever), or to combined two kingdoms to make them stronger.

Now a days though we have Age of Consent laws, they're state laws, that say that you arent allowed to do so and so (like marry, have sex, whatever) unless they're a certain age. These laws vary from state to state and even from male to female (and even from male\male to female\female). They're not a Constitution admendment but state laws.

....but i'm not sure what you're saying there though.

I was simpling agreeing with him.

the ten commandments were not primarily made so that we can follow them. it was ultimately made to show that we are hopeless and can not obey all 10 commandements and that we needed to repent and be forgiven by the merciful yet just God.

If God knew we werent going to follow them, then why did he make them? From your theory, God made them so we would always feel bad about ourselves.. what a great world your religion pictures for you... always feeling guilty and scared.
My theory on them are as follows.

The first 3 commandments are Spiritual commandments. These commandments relate to a person's religious or spiritual attitude;

1. Love God

2. Dont abuse the name of God

3. Spend religious time at least once a week for God

The rest are social commandments, how to deal with people. They're often summarized by the golden rule "Do unto others, as they would have you do unto them"

4. Honor your parents

5. Dont kill or harm others

6. Dont commit adultery

7. Dont steal from others

8. Dont say lies or bad things about others

9. Dont covet or be jealous about another persons property

10. Don't covet or be jealous about others' relationships

They're moral sayings that one should live their life by, they're not laws to follow and were not the basis of the US Constitution.

_Ender_, after reading your description on each of the 10 commandments, i don't think what you have in mind is a solid proof to your opinion quoting "Six of the ten Commandments go directly against the Bill of Rights."

I wasnt trying to prove that they went against the Bill of Rights. I was trying to disprove his theory of them being the basis of the US Constitution, which I feel I did. I dont know who else agrees.. Now I will say that the 10 Commandments are a model for private and public morality for all early Americans, but to say that its the basis of the US Constitution is just false.

Originally Posted by Hairy

You can. Only if it falls under disturbing the peace could legal action be taken

And lets not forget that "disturbing the peace" is a state law, not a Constitutional one.

[Nightfire]

If God knew we werent going to follow them, then why did he make them? From your theory, God made them so we would always feel bad about ourselves.. what a great world your religion pictures for you... always feeling guilty and scared.

i'd like to see you live your entire life without breaking a single-rule. and trust me, i've broken at least one everyday and i can guarantee that even phil and dog has too...like i said, it's to show God's standards for admittance into heaven and if you break even one, you are ultimately disqualified. that's why you need Jesus. *i'm not being a preacher here....but yea.


PS: Thanks for calling me "NiFi," brought me back some memories....lol

[_Ender_]

Originally Posted by Nightfire

i'd like to see you live your entire life without breaking a single-rule.

I wouldnt never do that to begin with. I live my life the way I see it, not based off some "rules" that, as you even admit, are hard to follow anyway.

it's to show God's standards for admittance into heaven and if you break even one, you are ultimately disqualified. that's why you need Jesus. *i'm not being a preacher here....but yea.

Why do you bother then? I'm sorry, but why do you object yourself to failure everyday of your life, having to live with the guilt of breaking one of "his rules" and the feeling of being scared of what might happen if you do.. it doesnt seem worth it to me.

PS: Thanks for calling me "NiFi," brought me back some memories....lol

[=DdogG=]

the ten commandments were a result of the curse. everything from Genesis 3 on is about "plan b" Plan a was male and female on complete equal footing and in coregent rule over the earth with self worth shaped by worship (look up the root of the word worship as used in the old testament.... it literally means worth shape) after Adam sinned, Man was cursed to have his worth shaped by the fruit of the soil he tended. Women were cursed to be subjugated to men and to strive to regain the original coregent rule.... the curse puts men and women in a power struggle, and most of the quoted verses in the bible about a "womans place" and a "man as the head of the house" is about what the curse has done and how to counteract it.

The 10 commandments were laws put forth by God to keep the jewish people in check and to not follow the ways of the world. The 10 commandments are the law, but since Christ died, we live under grace, and while following the 10 commandments will help in a Christian walk, you will get to heaven without keeping them. nowhere in the new tesatament do you find anyone say breaking them damns you.... once you proclaim jesus as forgiver of your past and leader of your tommorrows, believing he paid the price of your sins, you got your ticket. you can go to heaven and live like hell getting there.....


so, I guess to answer the question, I guess I don't worry about screwing up..... because I don't live under the law, I live under grace....


now, please forgive the preaching, but it would have been impossible to rebutt your post without giving you a portion of my basis of faith. I tried not to preach, and I appologize if it came across like that.... but it is like you trying to tell me where you think Christmas originated without saying anything about pagans.......


and as for the real b'day of Jesus, the majority of biblical scholars and commentators believe that he was probably 3 months to 1 year old before the "wise men" actually showed up. (there is no reference to there being three men, just three gifts.... there could have been 2 or 200.....) and it is very possible that they showed up over a few years period and were not all travelling partners.