DudeMan

hold on from your own words

"where the police are helped to convict a criminal in any way possible."

you some how see this as a bad thing, if it were intrusive and convicting innocent people then i agree, but why should jhonny convict get away with something becasue the law has not been thought through

being american or not has no baring

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

RandomGuy

How do you separate "jhonny convict" from the "innocent people"?

The problem is the qualifier "any". If we want the police to convict criminals in any way possible then why bother with warrants, trials and rules of evidence. They could just torture any suspect until they confessed.

Ok, perhaps that's hyperbole but my point is that it is a sliding scale. To get back on topic this thread is about sliding that scale ever so slightly one way or the other with respect to drug-sniffing dogs. As I said earlier I think this adjustment should "slide" to the police side. I am just concerned by your previous statements as to how far you would slide the scale and/or how far it has gone in the UK.

DudeMan

and here is your problem, with 3% of the process, actually finding the evidence, you have gone through CPS evidence gathering, susect rights, and trial straght to the death sentence.

jump to conclusions all you want, but it does not mean you know what you are talking about.

if there is no evidence then there can be no conviction. so yes innocent people still are free, because reguardless of the search if there was no ileagle act, there can be no trial.

in lamens. if you have nothing to hide then you wont get bothered.

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

RandomGuy

Well, I don't see how you can promise me that. Police do the wrong thing sometimes, both by mistake and willfully.

Pokerface

But what if I have something to hide, only not something illegal? What if I don't want the police looking through my trunk-full of men's magazines and embarassing ointments?

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DudeMan

oh come on, any nation is as good as its people. you cannot argue sometimes cops do bad things. thats not an argument its a fact. the fact is you have taken the regular bobby on the street and completly bypassed the judicial system and then made judgement.

dont go on about bent cops, no country can prevent bent cops. but the systems in place to check evidence and other things highlight discrepencies. accusations that somehow the law in thei country would falsify this to convict was never in the discussion although you are turning it that way.

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

then a sniffer dog will not alert the officer to the smell of spunk and wart cream, it is trained to sniff drugs,

bit out there really, you really would rather see a criminal go free than have someone find out you like kinky mags....

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

RandomGuy

I have nothing bad to say about the people of China, but I think their nation sucks.

If police officers had free reign to access and gather evidence of any kind in any way what do you think the odds are they could find enough dirt on any given person to convict them of something? Even worse, what do you think the odds are they could find something private about any given person which that person would desparately not want revealed in the court or media? What percentage of the population would the police not be able to intimidate? We have laws regarding searches and evidence so much power is in the hands of police. It's not that I don't like police. I like them very much the way the laws are now. If I were living in China, then perhaps not. Remember what Lord Acton said about power.

DudeMan

what if this what if that

the UNited Kingdom is a model of freedom, our police service is one of the best in the world. working with many nations.

just because you seem to be a malcontent and always want to believe the worst in people thats your problem. but the police here are entitled to search your car on the street if they feel they are likly to get a result. if you had to go to court every time they needed a stop and search then it would be stupid.

further more all of the things you mention with reference to this thread would have to be smothered in canabis for a dog to find it.

how can such a nanny state in your opinion be one of the worlds most free countries at the same time.

we really need to look at the baisic, if it helps a police officer get justice ("within reason and this applies to stop and searches") then it will be done.

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

CingularDuality

Your definition of freedom must be a bit different from mine, my friend...

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DudeMan

oh dont even start, the united Kingdom is one of the most free in the world, at any given moment we can change our laws, just like we have changed our laws on hunts with hounds AnD SMOKING MOST RECENTLY.

jesus you really know absolutly nothing about the British dont you... oh yes were opressed oooh opressed i tell you...

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Lirix

We were being taxed without representation because we were across an ocean and couldn't complain loudly enough to be heard. But every nation makes mistakes from time to time.

Also, everytime you bring up searches in the UK I see something similar to "expect a result". I believe we call that "probable cause" in this country. Your enforcement laws don't sound all that different. I know for a fact that our police can stop a vehicle for matching a stolen vehicle's description, and will run proper checks to make certain that your vehicle is *your* vehicle.

As to the topic, I hope this gets laughed out of court. I can just see the officer's testimony now. "Why'd you bring the dog out to the suspects car?" "Well, he'd been in the car with me for the better part of an hour and I thought I'd let him stretch his legs....then he barked."

leejo

What if instead of a dog, the police use a geiger counter or some device that detects chemical or biological weapons. And instead of finding some pot, they found a dirty (or not-so-dirty!) nuclear bomb or some really nice chemicals.

That's fun to think about isn't it? Should the police be able to use such detection devices without a warrant?

CingularDuality

THAT is a good question!

I know that immigration and customs officers at the border have enormous authority to search: basically, regardless of whether or not you're suspected of anything, they can search you and your property.

But a regular cop off the border? I dunno. If the equipment is so sensitive that it only detects the weapon near the vehicle, then it's in the same boat as the thermal imaging equipment used to detect gro-lamps. You can't use my argument of it "just being an officer with a better sense of smell." Perhaps if the officer is carrying it with him everywhere he goes for "public safety" reasons, then it wouldn't be a search?

Regardless, I can't see this type of case ever even making it to our judicial system...

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DudeMan

yes i agree with the most part, i did say "the united Kingdom, our colonies were never free. and to be honest if it were not for that then we would not be the country we are.

you americans cannot say much to us though after all if you look at your very short history you will see that large portions of your ecopnomy was built off the back of slavery.

ofcourse we have grown as nations. and i agree with you totally my brother has been to the united states and he agrees too. we probably are very similar in the legal sense.

i wont make excuses for my countries past, just as at one time we both had opressed women and really it wasnt that long ago that changed.

as for this topi i hope the same. and just to put this in perspective, when i say i was stopped on my scooter 12 times in 2 years, it sounds alot, however take these facts into consideration, the theft of motor scooters in my area is very high, so high infact we have the worst area in england, to get insured i have to pay alot of money, and alot of insurers just say no not till you are 25 yrs old... no joke.

and to get stopped 12 times in 730 days is not a problem for me, i literally use my bike every single day of my life, for work and pleasure. infact i love my bike and i want to know i am going to get it back or at least have a good chance of it, if it gets nicked.

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"