Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist?

**CingularDuality** · 11-16-2004, 02:51 AM

I understand that an imbedded reporter witnessed a US Marine administering a "coup d' grace" to a wounded terrorist. Anyone heard anything about it?

Nevermind, found it. Here's an article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in655898.shtml

Quote:

A spokesman for the U.S. Marines says an investigation is underway into a videotaped incident in a Fallujah mosque, in which pool television pictures broadcast Monday appear to show a Marine shooting and killing an already captive and wounded Iraqi prisoner....CBS News Correspondent Wyatt Andrews reports that the tape shows a squad of Marines finding a room of wounded insurgents inside a mosque, which was a former insurgent stronghold and was believed by Marines to be the source of heavy enemy fire.

The tape shows a Marine shouting out that one of the wounded is playing "possum."

""He's f--ing faking he's dead!" says the Marine.

A second Marine says, "And he's breathing!"

The first Marine then repeats "He's f--ing faking he's dead!" and is shown raising his rifle toward a prisoner lying on the floor of the mosque. News organizations that have shown the video did not show the bullet hitting the man. At that moment, the video is blacked out but the sound of the rifle can be heard.

A Marine then says, according to the videotape: "He's dead now."

CBS News Correspondent Wyatt Andrews reports it turns out the insurgents were unarmed - left in the mosque by a previous squad of Marines to await medical evacuation. But the second squad did not know that. Commanders had not evacuated the wounded because U.S. troops were still under fire.

Wow.

Benny_ · 11-16-2004, 07:54 AM

I heard this this morning on the news here. It's disappointing that for all the brave soldiers sacraficing themselves for the cause they have been put into there are the few that create such advers publicity it further demonises the efforts.

Abu Ghraib.

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 10:23 AM

I've seen so many WWII vets say "only a combat veteran is in a position to judge another combat veteran" but of course those days are long gone. This guy will be judged by every librarian and blogger on the planet.

Churchill said "A prisoner of war is a man who tries to kill you and fails, and then asks you not to kill him." Our soldiers suffer the most obscene atrocities and the world never spends 6 months examining how it could have happened, but this event will get plenty of play.

Abu Ghraib was very different. What happened here was done in a combat situation by a guy who'd apparently been shot the day before and his unit had lost a marine when a booby-trapped body killed him. I imagine that dude could use a break, and we can cut him some slack.

Soon each company will be assigned a JAG officer to prosecute/defend soldiers for any actions taken under fire that might lead to enemy deaths.

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 10:44 AM

I am curious to see the Muslim outrage at these people who used a Mosque as a fort.

**CingularDuality** · 11-16-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I've seen so many WWII vets say "only a combat veteran is in a position to judge another combat veteran" but of course those days are long gone.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking... I went to bed last night thinking about this. I pictured myself in intense MOUT firefights. I walk into a building that just might be booby trapped and I see three dead terrorists. Looking closer, I see that one of them is actually breathing and looking at me through one slit eye. He's playing dead so he can spring the trap! The terrorist starts to move his hand and POW. No way would I let him initiate the IED...

It looks to me like it's just an extremely unfortunate situation caused by a breakdown in communication. That wounded terrorist died because he was in the middle of combat. Period.

**USN_Squid** · 11-16-2004, 01:18 PM

WARNING: Full enedited video

http://tv.reuters.com/index.jsp?fr_s...fa4885c0fb9f0f

**GhostintheShell** · 11-16-2004, 05:22 PM

Murder, no other word for it.

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 05:26 PM

Hmmm. Maybe it would be nice to get a little more information and evidence under our belts before we start trashing combat soldiers names?

**phyllis** · 11-16-2004, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

Murder, no other word for it.

How can you say that

? Define "murder" in that situation(Fallujah). I wouldn't jump to that conclusion at all. In the situation those soldiers are in, I wouldn't call that "murder"...I'd say it was a rather intelligent decision. That video didn't show them searching under or around the guy....what...we let him there, let half the squad get in the room to check out the "wounded" guy, then have him roll out a grenade(missing the fuse) or set off any other type of explosive device ? No...I wouldn't be so bold as to call it murder.

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 05:51 PM

The geneva conventions (and remember there is some question as to these insurgents' status under the conventions) state that "Persons are hors de combat if they have been captured, if they have surrendered, or if they are unconscious or otherwise incapacitated provided that they do not attempt to fight or escape."

I suggest that this combatant was attempting to escape by faking death. How does that change matters?

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 05:55 PM

Quote:

guerrillas

Guerrillas who follow the rules spelled out in the Geneva Conventions are considered to have combatant status and have some of the same rights as regular members of the armed forces.

In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack. At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3)

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4, Sec. 2)

In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)

based on the above, these characters are not entitled to protection under the conventions. Having said that, the Marines have their own code of conduct and this young Marine may have failed to uphold that high standard, but that's up to the Corps to decide, not the internet forums.

**DudeMan** · 11-16-2004, 07:42 PM

i dont think this is murder, for starters as you have pointed out this soldier has not officially surrendered, even though given the fact he isnt dead or incapacitated he could have. secondly the soldiers are facing boobytraps all over fallujah, given the situation it would be a tough call..

on the other hand, he could have been detained without death imo, (although i will not judge the marine it was his call.

what will let him down os the fact the same marine was aparantly shot in the cheek previous and therefore could serve as motive....

**GhostintheShell** · 11-16-2004, 09:28 PM

HAHAHA, faking death, trying to escape, what a load.

Do you actually believe this crap you are manufacturing to justify what we all just saw in that video?

I watched it like 10 times and never saw any good reason for that dude to go ballistic (literally) and shoot the other guy.

God forbid he should still be breathing, because now he's "faking death". If he was actually dead beforehand we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If he was alive he was an unarmed, injured, insurgent and deserved to die.
If he was dead then he was a dead insurgent and deserved to die.
Thats screwed up logic that is.

If he was left there to be medivac'd he was already a US prisoner. He was in their care as a POW, they should have left a guard with the prisoners. If you shoot an unarmed POW, and its called a war crime.

**leejo** · 11-16-2004, 09:34 PM

I was throwing out a scenario for discussion. Since you raise it, what if the marines who said "he's faking it" were wrong and he was already dead? Do you know that he wasn't? Does the video tell you? If not, then maybe wait for more evidence before calling a combat soldier, risking his life in service of YOU, a murderer. At least don't fall over yourself to be the first kid on the block to be holier than he.

IceCold · 11-16-2004, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

HAHAHA, faking death, trying to escape, what a load.

Do you actually believe this crap you are manufacturing to justify what we all just saw in that video?

I watched it like 10 times and never saw any good reason for that dude to go ballistic (literally) and shoot the other guy.

God forbid he should still be breathing, because now he's "faking death". If he was actually dead beforehand we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If he was alive he was an unarmed, injured, insurgent and deserved to die.
If he was dead then he was a dead insurgent and deserved to die.
Thats screwed up logic that is.

If he was left there to be medivac'd he was already a US prisoner. He was in their care as a POW, they should have left a guard with the prisoners. If you shoot an unarmed POW, and its called a war crime.

While I understand your sentiments, you are factually incorrect. First of all, I don't believe that it can be a war crime, as no law of war was broken. Secondly, they aren't POWs. And lastly, to call it "murder" you would have to know a lot more than what is shown in this video. The fact that you are so quick to judge says a lot about your prejudice. You have no idea what else was happening off camera, or what happened immediately prior to that video.

I recommend we wait for the facts to come out before judging what a United States Marine does in the heat of combat.

I'm not saying it wasn't murder. I am saying it's crazy to try to determine that from a few seconds of video.

11-16-2004, 07:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
Benny_ Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 369	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? I heard this this morning on the news here. It's disappointing that for all the brave soldiers sacraficing themselves for the cause they have been put into there are the few that create such advers publicity it further demonises the efforts. Abu Ghraib.

11-16-2004, 10:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,690	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? I've seen so many WWII vets say "only a combat veteran is in a position to judge another combat veteran" but of course those days are long gone. This guy will be judged by every librarian and blogger on the planet. Churchill said "A prisoner of war is a man who tries to kill you and fails, and then asks you not to kill him." Our soldiers suffer the most obscene atrocities and the world never spends 6 months examining how it could have happened, but this event will get plenty of play. Abu Ghraib was very different. What happened here was done in a combat situation by a guy who'd apparently been shot the day before and his unit had lost a marine when a booby-trapped body killed him. I imagine that dude could use a break, and we can cut him some slack. Soon each company will be assigned a JAG officer to prosecute/defend soldiers for any actions taken under fire that might lead to enemy deaths. Last edited by leejo; 11-16-2004 at 10:43 AM.

11-16-2004, 10:44 AM	#4 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,690	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? I am curious to see the Muslim outrage at these people who used a Mosque as a fort.

11-16-2004, 01:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
USN_Squid Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Denver Age: 38 Posts: 3,132	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? WARNING: Full enedited video http://tv.reuters.com/index.jsp?fr_s...fa4885c0fb9f0f __________________ New to TG? Start here!

11-16-2004, 05:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? Murder, no other word for it.

11-16-2004, 05:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,690	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? Hmmm. Maybe it would be nice to get a little more information and evidence under our belts before we start trashing combat soldiers names?

11-16-2004, 05:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,690	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? The geneva conventions (and remember there is some question as to these insurgents' status under the conventions) state that "Persons are hors de combat if they have been captured, if they have surrendered, or if they are unconscious or otherwise incapacitated provided that they do not attempt to fight or escape." I suggest that this combatant was attempting to escape by faking death. How does that change matters?

11-16-2004, 07:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? i dont think this is murder, for starters as you have pointed out this soldier has not officially surrendered, even though given the fact he isnt dead or incapacitated he could have. secondly the soldiers are facing boobytraps all over fallujah, given the situation it would be a tough call.. on the other hand, he could have been detained without death imo, (although i will not judge the marine it was his call. what will let him down os the fact the same marine was aparantly shot in the cheek previous and therefore could serve as motive.... __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

11-16-2004, 09:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? HAHAHA, faking death, trying to escape, what a load. Do you actually believe this crap you are manufacturing to justify what we all just saw in that video? I watched it like 10 times and never saw any good reason for that dude to go ballistic (literally) and shoot the other guy. God forbid he should still be breathing, because now he's "faking death". If he was actually dead beforehand we wouldn't be having this conversation. If he was alive he was an unarmed, injured, insurgent and deserved to die. If he was dead then he was a dead insurgent and deserved to die. Thats screwed up logic that is. If he was left there to be medivac'd he was already a US prisoner. He was in their care as a POW, they should have left a guard with the prisoners. If you shoot an unarmed POW, and its called a war crime.

11-16-2004, 09:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,690	Re: Anyone heard about a Marine that murdered a wounded terrorist? I was throwing out a scenario for discussion. Since you raise it, what if the marines who said "he's faking it" were wrong and he was already dead? Do you know that he wasn't? Does the video tell you? If not, then maybe wait for more evidence before calling a combat soldier, risking his life in service of YOU, a murderer. At least don't fall over yourself to be the first kid on the block to be holier than he.

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