GhostintheShell

Hey Cing, I don't think you are taking the homeland terrorism statment I made the way I intended it. I'm not calling you a terrorist because you have a gun to protect your home, I'm trying to say that you are the one being terrorised by your own fears.

I don't worry when I go to bed that someone is going to break in and kill us all, as I don't think those are reasonable fears in the society I live in. I even cancelled our security system when we moved due to the fact that I thought it was a big waste of money.

When I grew up (in the 70's and 80's) we never had a door key that I knew of, for the first 20 years of my life we never locked our door.

We didn't choose to ignore the fact that someone could break in to our homes and harm us, we chose not to live in fear of what may happen. Unless you are living in a neighbourhood of frequent break-ins and home invasions you are feeding a hysterical and unrealistic fear.

TheFeniX

Keeping my .45 next to my bed in my night-stand has the exact opposite effect that you claim it does: I sleep perfectly sound in my bed because I know that in the event of an invasion, I have a powerful way in which to defend myself. I have trained in gun usage enough to know how to operate my weapon if the need arises.

It's also been shown that carriers of a concealed handgun are much less likely to be harrassed because they tend to act more confidently in public. Criminals tend to avoid confident citizens.

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GhostintheShell

So, you are admitting to improper storage? Do you have kids or have kids or others visit that could get a hold of the weapon? Sleepwalk with no recollection? Have nightmares occasionally where you jump up in bed scared?

I think there's at least a dozen scenarios where it could go either for or against you having a loaded gun next to your bed. How many of those scenarios fit the idealistic dream you have about waking up at the first sound of tinkling glass and being poised and ready to blow away the intruder that has come to kill you?

Or maybe the thief would be so quiet as to get right up beside you and take the gun before you woke and slip out in the night with yet another stolen weapon on the street.

TheFeniX

Define "improper." My dad kept (still keeps) his .45 loaded and chambered and it was completely safe. You know anything about Colt model .45s? Three Safeties. I could beat a robber with the loaded gun and never fear a round going off.

And when I was old enough, my dad took me to the range and taught me everything he could about guns and safety. At the age of 7, I could tell you all the steps in securing a gun and keeping it safe. My dad knows full well about the responsibility of gun ownership, and he imparted that to me. If I ever do have kids, I'll impart that to them.

Only in the hands of the ignorant and stupid are guns dangerous.

Haha! That is just so ridiculous. "Oh noes! Guns are the devil because you could possible sleepwalk and shoot things!" You be more likely to trip and crack you skull open on a tile floor.

Oh God, that just made my day. Unfortunately, I have to clean up the Diet Coke I spit all over my keyboard from laughing.

Second floor apartment. Unless that dude's a Ninja, he toast. But Ninjas are cool about that.

Yes, because he could break down a dead-bolted door (no key access from the outside), pick the lock on my bedroom door, and with his psychic powers know EXACTLY where to find my gun and run off. Of course, the fact that even small changes in air pressure tend to wake me up (which is annoying as Hell to this day) wouldn't matter because by owning a gun, I'm stupid enough to leave all my doors open and unlocked.

And if those happen to you? At least I have a chance against an armed intruder. All you can do is stick your fingers in your ears and think happy thoughts.

I look at life like I look at network security at work: layers. I protect myself with layers of security. Hence, why someone would both lock the doors to their car and install an alarm. Get through one, you have to deal with the other.

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DudeMan

so infact you do sleep with this on your mind. further more the reason for owning it is to ease this constant yet irrational fear you have.

you guys always talk about odds of guns and crimes. what are the odds in america someone will break in and kill you all. per population count how many times does this happen say in 10 years?

owning a gun just means that anyone who wants to break in will arm themselves with a gun also. it does not increase your chance of winning. if the person is intent on killing you they will, if they want to rob you they still will, and chances are youll have a shootout.

ok you might win you might not. there are 1000 factors that would decide that.

the danger of owning a gaun is mistakes, my cousin would have been shot had i owned a gun a few years back, he came to stay in a new house with me and a few mates, we were down stairs he was in bed, he managed to sleepwalk and come dow stairs, he broke a glass in the kitchen by knocking it on the floor, this is when we heard him, my friend pulled up his bat and stoof near the door, as my cousin walked through the door he got smacked. had he owned a gun chances are he would have shot him.

you might say far fetched. well so beit, but owning a gn and keeping it by your bed is irrational and dangerous. not to you who knows all about it but to the potential it could do unlocked like that.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

GhostintheShell

I'm still calling "improper storage" if you have a loaded gun in the house, period.

Proper storage to me means locked storage compartments, guns and ammo not stored together, and trigger locks on each weapon.

I think you are underestimating us here in Canada if you think we don't have firearms, or firearms familiarity in our society. I was taught to strip down and clean all our hunting guns when I was about 5, because my dad felt it was the best way to instill respect and familiarity with each type of gun and guns in general. It worked.

TheFeniX

Drum drum drum goes the left-wing brainwashing.

Remember kids, locking your doors is irrational fear of getting robbed.
Wearing your seatbelt is an irrational fear of getting in a car-wreck.
Wearing condoms is an irrational fear of getting disease.

What could you possibly base that on? More psychic criminals? Dear God..... ANYWAYS, consider this then:

I live in Texas and a large portion of the people here own guns. Therefore a smart home-invader will bring a gun. Hence, no gun for me = automatic loss. Gun = chance for survival.

Let me also point out that your arguement makes my head hurt. It's based around the fact that criminals only bring guns into houses they KNOW the guy is armed and will shoot at them? Last time I checked, these guys tend to run away when shot at.

Remember again kids: guns don't stop people from killing you. The army has it all wrong. Guns are worthless if someone else has one...or something... wait, what is this stuff? Crack? Anyways, If someone shoots at you, just ask them nicely to stop or call them a "doo-doo head."

Let's actually try and come up with some way in which I could explain to you how strange this arguement is: If I want to stop him from robbing me more than he wants to rob me: then I win right? The guns don't matter? It's a test of willpower?

That's Zen man, I can dig it.


Yea, but without a gun I'll lose it 100% of the time unless I can throw a knife like Chuck Norris. I mean, I understand you guys might just roll-over when someone is trying to kill you, but I damn sure won't.

Because your friend is an idiot and can't manage to say the phrase "Who's down there!?" above 40 dbs, guns are bad?

Once again: the extreme worst case scenario is your argument? How about this: people who know about guns, don't just start shooting at everything they see and hear. But that would involve your arguement making sense.

Anyone who is in my room without my knowledge is either:
A. my roomate (who also owns a gun).
B. someone breaking and entering (which doesn't apply anyways).

Hence, I am perfectly comfortable leaving it where it is.

And I'm still calling it "left-wing brainwashing."

Congratulations: your gun now has no chance of being able to be used in self-defense.

This is funny because then the criminal doesn't actually have to be psychic to know you have no actionable weapon to defend yourself again a gun. Whereas in Texas, they have no idea if the 80 year old lady down in the pink house owns a .357.

Gun as in rifle? Unless you hunt with a .44 magnum, then I'd say your expertise is limited to shotguns and rifles.

If you honestly believe that it's wrong to be able to defend yourself against intruders, then maybe you're overestimating yourself.

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RandomGuy

Fenix, you seem to go back and forth between the scenarios of someone breaking in to steal from you and breaking in to kill you. What do you think the chances are of each scenario occurring?

TheFeniX

Like I said earlier: it's called "Home Invasion" for a reason. These criminals know you are home, yet they are still breaking into the homes. This isn't a stolen TV or a stolen car radio: this is someone intentionally violating the sanctity of my home while my family and I are in it.

Their intention is clear. Why else would you break into a home when the person who owns it is there? You either want to terrorize them, hurt them, or kill them.

And my intentions are clear. If it ever does happen to me, I want the best options avaliable to deal with it. If that means, grabbing my gun and running out the back, that's fine: it's just stuff and I have insurance.

If it means gunning down the armed robber who is between me and escape, so be it. He made his choice in life. If he kills me, then at least I went down fighting and not at the mercy of some pshyco.

The fact is these Home Invasions are getting increasingly more violent. While you may think that it will only happen to someone else, I don't take that chance. I plan in advance: always have. I save money so that if I lose my job, I can go 6 months on just what I've got in the bank. I make plans weeks if not months in advanced for vacations (like most people). I watch suspicious people in parking lots. I watch my tail when driving late at night (been followed delibrately three separate times, not a good feeling).

Does this make me paranoid? I guess so, but I'd rather be paranoid than caught with my pants down. I own my gun, might as well have it ready to work if the need arises. I've never understood the "Hear no evil, see no evil" attitude of people.

My paranoia has saved my butt more than once. I'm not going to throw the topic off by explaining them though.

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CingularDuality

What do the odds matter, really? We all know it happens. We read about it in the newspaper every few days. Fenix has repeatedly brought up the analogy to seatbelts, car insurance and condoms with no response. The fact is that having a gun and the knowledge of how to handle it is just one more thing that you can do to protect yourself.

As for "improper storage", I've got a book that I just reread that's called Gun Proof Your Child by Massad Ayoob. Your parents didn't have trigger locks or gun safes for their guns and you didn't shoot yourself or anyone else. Why all of a sudden is it improper to have loaded guns in the same house as a child? Because people that spawn aren't necessarily parents anymore, that's why. My four year old knows that he can ask me anytime he wants to see any of my guns. He's shot them. They hold no mystery to him and he knows that he's not allowed to touch them unless I give him permission. He knows that he's not allowed to show them to his friends (they are all locked up except the one on my hip/nightstand, BTW) unless his friends' parents give their permission. I don't have to ensure that my guns are secure from my child. I've ensured that my child is secure from unattended guns. Just like my parents did, and just like their parents did...

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RandomGuy

The analogies to seatbelts, insurance and savings in the bank are apt and I think they are good reasons for keeping a gun for home defense.

However, in all of these cases you have made a decision of pros and cons. In the case of seatbelts or airbags the chance of them saving your life in an accident is moderate, but the chance of them malfunctioning and strangling or suffocating you is quite small.

What are the circumstances under which having the gun pays off and what are the relative odds of that happening? What are the ways in which having the gun can go wrong and cost you. What are the relative odds of that happening? You have decided that the pros outweigh the cons of owning a gun. I'm not saying you are wrong I just want you to explain your decisions involving some of the "worst-case scenarios" that have been mentioned above.

CingularDuality

Good question! First of all, I might point out that there is debate on whether or not airbags have saved or hurt more people... They've certainly killed a number of children. Tragic, but nobody banned airbags...

As for the scenarios of gun ownership, we could describe them forever. I've imagined many of them. I've imagined scenarios that involve my son and a friend and a tragic gunshot. I've imagined some evil burglar threatening my wife or son and a not-so-tragic gunshot. I've imagined, and lived, scenarios that fell in between these two. I've used a gun to scare a burglar from my apartment when I was living in California. I've carried a gun that had the express purpose of killing people and I now carry a gun that is a tool to help me enforce the laws of my nation. I've pointed a gun at people that I fully intended to shoot and kill if they didn't do exactly what I told them to do. I've never had to shoot someone.

I've never had an airbag or seatbelt save me from anything either, however...

I think it's all about mindset. The NRA has a safety course called "Refuse to be a Victim". I guess you could say that about me and my mindset. As this world becomes increasingly violent, I'm going to ensure that I do everything I can to keep myself and my family from ever being the victim. I take personal responsibility for my safety and that of my family. The police can't do that.

I'd like to also throw a societal argument into the mix here. We've seen it confirmed repeatedly, and have NEVER seen it disproven, so I think it's safe to say that societies that allow/encourage firearms ownership/use have lower crime rates. The fact that a thief in Washington DC knows that his victims cannot be legally armed empowers the criminals. The fact that a thief in Texas knows that he's got a good chance of encountering an armed target empowers the citizenry. This goes to show that although I'm directly using my gun to protect myself and my family, indirectly, I'm helping to make my community a safer place overall.

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TheFeniX

The chance of a gun malfunctioning if properly maintained is quite small. A bullet could lodge in the barrel and blow up in my face. It happens, but seatbelt/airbags ripping/not deploying happen as well.

As for user error: if you don't know how to handle a gun and need it, the possibility of hurting yourself or other innocents is high. That's not an issue here because I'm quit handy with most personal firearms (rifles and shotguns included), as should anyone who owns one should be.

Likewise, Improper use of a seat belt/air bag can be deadly. If you decide to put the chest strap under your arm, or lean back in your seat, or hold it out with a lot of slack: you have not only defeated the safety measure, you have made the seatbelt/airbag combination extremely dangerous to yourself.

The chances of me getting in a car-wreck are slim, but I still protect myself.
The chances of me getting involved in a gun-fight are slim, but I still protect myself the best I can.

I have the guns are the training to use them effectively. If the need arises, I will defend myself with deadly force. What other explanation do you need?

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leejo

Another story about a charming dude catching a bullet.

Because of the method Mr. Reyes used in the robbery, police did a DNA test and matched him "perfectly" to 3 local rapes.

USN_Squid

In all age groups you are many times more likely to die from drowning or burning than from a gun accident.

Accidental Death figures from the National Safety Council Injury Facts 2001 as compiled by Guncite.com Scroll to the bottom for table.


And here is some great research on Mandatory Safe Storage laws. The natural instinct is to think that these laws will save lives, but the negligible reduction in deaths attributed to safe storage are dwarfed by the number of lives that could have been saved had the firearm been accesible.


"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would." --- John Adams

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