TheFeniX

"Headshot, that'll slow him down."

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GhostintheShell

Nah, he'll just be back next round to call you a haxor.

DudeMan

i think ill just wait for someone that does not answer the questions posed to the entire forum with insults and condecending language.

im dissapointed from the onslaught fenix, your first line is calling me a leftist brainwashed/brainwasher.

it might surprise you but i am not left wing, the laws in my country mean we dont own guns, so we see the other side of the spectrum.

a onesided argument is useless and you have proved you are not at all interested in paticipating in a discussion all you have done is badger people who have stated their opinion.

and i am not going to respond to i was not condecending, just read your post,

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

GhostintheShell

I think the whole discussion, while interesting to see the other sides viewpoint the outcome is fairly well set in stone. I've heard all these points and counter points before, so have you guys.

We've individually made our decisions for or against having a loaded gun around the house for defense purposes.

I think both sides have strong arguments, and we each chosen our stance, no one is going to sway.

leejo

I disagree Ghost. I used to think more along your lines than not. Keep talking and thinking: eventually you'll see things my way

I'm totally kidding. You'll see things your way, whatever way that is.

USN_Squid

While I agree we probably won't sway each other's opinions on anything other than gaming possibly, there are direct and provable facts involved in this discussion that should at least peak your interest.

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IceCold

No, I don't think you're correct, either. This is one of the few issues where the differences in opinion aren't simply emotional. This anti-gun movement is fairly new (within the last 50 years) and is dedicated to making the emotional argument. My side of the argument uses facts and logic to make its point. I've seen more people change their mind on this issue than on any other like it... Use logic instead of emotions and you'll change your mind, too.

TheFeniX

And claiming someone is living in (and I quote) "constant yet irrational fear" is neither an insult nor condecending?

Pot to kettle: I don't start the insults, I just respond in kind. I was insulted by the lack of care you showed in posting your arguement. You came into a thread that was based around a man defending what is his and bashed those who would do the same about it.

I also call BS on your "to the entire forum" comment. You specifically took references from my post (via a direct quote) and targeted your response at me. Quit playing the hurt feelings rap.

Then prepare to be further disappointed.

No, you see only one side of the coin, and you claim it to be the only "rational" way.

I have heard some great anti-gun arguements in the past. They've helped change some of the views I have on guns to this day. I will in fact change my mind if I see that the facts point in that direction. No amount of point-dodging on your part will change that.

I seek to understand everything I can about guns in general, you seek to avoid that knowledge by denying it completely.

Fine by me, but don't start a fight you won't finish. If you jab at someone, be prepared for them to swing back.

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GhostintheShell

I never made an emotional compromise on this topic, I made a simple mathematical and logical one.

The crime rate in my city is so low, and the likelyhood of anything happening so remote that I have determined that I don't have a "reasonable threat" to be concerned about.

In my case it would be a greater risk for me to have a firearm, loaded, next to my bed for the purposes of home defense.

Hence, no need.

Maybe some of you live in much different circumstances, where there's a real and present danger, hence a "reasonable threat".

TheFeniX

All three of those are examples that prey on someone's emotions. It makes people think how they would feel if they were caught in those situations. It's not the emotional content that's the issue. It's only an issue if that's the only evidence you present.

Canada tends to have less violent crime than America (particularly in high-population areas). I could go into details on why it's that way, but that's for another topic.

Even if I was 100% positive that anyone who broke into my home would not be armed with a firearm: I would still keep my pistol. In that case, it gives me an edge over the assailant.

Besides the fact, that statistics show that you are much more likely to die when stabbed, then if you are shot. I'll see if I can find the info my CHL instructor gave me. For now I'll leave it with this: In Texas, if a person is within 20 feet of you with a bladed weapon and hostile intent is clear, you can shoot him (provided you are legally allowed to carry/own a handgun).

This law stems from the tests done where a "criminal" actor was able to close distance and stab a cop before he could draw his gun and fire. Sure the attacker would have died from the gun-shots, but I remember reading that 80% of people who are stabbed in robberies die.

Anyways, it's a tangent so I'll drop it.

And I respect your choice that you in particular do not need a firearm to defend your home. What I took offense to was the notion that anyone who does feel that way is "living terrorized by fear."

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GhostintheShell

I'd love to hear your explaination about why Canada has less crime than the US. If you actually had the one singular valid reason I'd be stunned because you'd be the only one who truly understands why, everyone else is stumped as to why there is anywhere from 1/10th to 1/100th the crime per capita in Canada as there is in the US. (Depending on the areas you compare.) We are the same people essentially with no difference. I don't know why we are different in this regard either, I'm just glad we got the safe end of that stick.

On topic, the bottom line is as I said, I don't need a gun to protect my home. No one is trying to break in and kill me, and no one ever will. For me to have a loaded gun ready specifically to protect my home I would consider an irrational fear.

Perhaps for some people, the need is perceived as real, or is truly real in some rare cases of people living in crime ridden areas. I also feel that those people live in fear for there to be a need for a loaded gun on the nightstand. That's what I ment by homeland terrorism. No person that felt completely safe (as I do) would bother to have a loaded gun next to their bed at night, there would be no need if there wasn't an inherent fear of what likely could happen if it wasn't there. If there was no fear, no perceived risk, then you wouldn't bother to risk having it there for someone to have an accident with, or for it to get stolen etc...

Its a security blanket, you sleep better by having it, you said it yourself.

Its up to you to determine if the need is real, moderately real, or totally unnecessary and weight your firearm handling and storage issues based on that.

I don't care anymore really, I know my requirements.

TheFeniX

There is no singular reason. It's a combination of many contributing factors including (but not limited to):
1. Population Density
2. Prevalence of minorities
3. Large low-income population
4. Education
5. Difference in criminal justice systems
6. Different rights granted to citizens.

Like I said, I could hammer on for paragraphs at all the factors that add up. I'm just not going to.

You once again have not answered my question on why you believe buckling your seatbelt or locking your doors at night is ok, but keeping a loaded gun is not.

Cars and doctors kill more people a year than gun accidents. If anything I should be more afraid of driving to the doctor's office than handling my gun. But I'm not.

I wear steel-toed shoes when on construction sites. Does that mean I have a morbid fear of having heavy objects fall on my foot, and it dogs me every second I'm on the job-site? No, it just means I'd like to protect myself in the event that it does happen. By your reasoning, I should leave the steel-toed shoes in the car because by using them, I'm buying into the fear and terrorizing myself by wearing them.

I'm not buying what you're selling.

Likewise: I keep my gun loaded IN my nightstand (not on) in the event of needing to use it. I don't think I'll ever need to (apartments have a low invasion/theft rate), but it's better safe than sorry. I don't wait till it hits the fan, I prefer to be prepared.

1. We've been over the whole: "you'll shoot your eye out, kid" arguement. Replace the ignorance with knowledge and accidents don't happen. I'm more likely to slip in the shower and crack my skull open than shoot myself with my gun.

2. Your theft arguement is a red herring as well. If I own the gun and someone breaks in: it could be stolen if it's loaded or not.

You view guns as this bomb ready to go off and kill your family at the first chance it gets. You realize how many everyday home objects can kill you so much easier? Ever seen what happens to a kid who sticks a flat-head into a light socket? A kid who drinks bleach from under the sink? The kid who falls down a flight of wooden stairs?

What solution do you take for your family? Do you rely on locks and plastic socket caps? Or do you inform your family about dangers, hence preparing them in the event that they do run into danger. I'll take knowledge any day of the week.

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GhostintheShell

Why do you keep pushing the argument away from gun -> home protection, to seatbelts and every other comparison you think is vaild?

Seatbelt/Airbag: I get in my car everyday and drive for 2-4 hours to my customers. I've driven 500k miles or so and had 2-3 minor accidents once hard enough the seatbelt kept me from going through the window. Almost everyday I have near-misses with stupid drivers, even worse now that there's a lot of snow on the ground. Seatbelts and airbags have already saved my wife and daughters life once when someone went straight through a stop sign and hit them. The likelyhood of me needing the seatbelt and airbag again in the near future is high, and the risk of loss of life due to using them is very low. By my calculations, there's a huge net gain using a seatbelt. We are required by law to do so, and to not wear a seatbelt is a $100 plus fine.

Steel toe Boots: I got into various industrial plants all day long to work on machinery in situations where i can't control the cleanliness of the area I have to work in. Also, I'm required by goverenment regulation to wear boots, hearing protection and safety glasses in those high risk areas. With the conditions I go into, there's a high likelyhood that those items have already saved me from harm and will again. I haven't heard of anyone who was harmed by wearing steel toe boots.

Fire extinguishers: Houses in my city catch fire everyday, I know because I see the trucks and read about it in the paper. Did I forget to turn off the coffeepot this morning when I left? Did I leave something on the stove and when I came back upstairs there was a huge greasefire? I also work with fuel/solvents in my garage, and there's another risk of fire. Fire extinguishers are cheap, prudent, and the likelyhood of them killing anyone is low unless they fall on your head or something.

Locking my doors: Most of the time we don't. I already told you I cancelled my security system due to it being a waste of money. That's $30 per month for monitoring, cellular backup etc., but I felt there was a net loss there because it was unneeded in my area. The door isn't locked all day, and family, friends come and go with a quick "knock and hello". If I'm the last one to go to bed I usually don't bother locking it, if my wife is last she will lock it and I sometimes make fun of her for being a loser. I get mad if I come home and the door is locked and I have to dig my key out of the bottom of my pocket with my hands full. Neighbourhood kids come and go from my house sometimes like its a train station, it would be a pain to lock the door.

Doctor: Well I don't go to the doctor either unless I have a problem. I haven't been for years. Doctors make mistakes, they are human, but for the most part you are very safe with your doctor. We shouldn't disparage them to make people think they are at risk everytime they go to see the trusted family physician. It hardly compares to the topic at hand.

These arguments are just silly.

leejo

Yes and I sleep in my bed everynight. I open and close my home's doors several times daily. You ARE at risk every time you see a doctor, which is why you make sure to see the trusted family physician instead of just any doctor, and I promise you that if someone in your family is every truly sick you will find the best doctor in the world for their condition. You take action to improve your odds. It precisely compares to the topic at hand. I use my home more than my car, boots, fire extinguishers, or doctor combined.

Your position that guns are useless and only serve as a sort of security blanket is silly to me. If you don't like guns and don't want them in your house, that's absolutely your right and completely reasonable. The problem is both sides' insistence that everyone see things their way.

TheFeniX

They're called examples, and when used with other evidence directly linked with your case: they are good aids.

So since a car is more dangerous to you than a loaded gun, we should ban cars. I wear my seatbelt because I have nothing to lose by wearing it. But I have much to gain if I do need it.

I keep my gun loaded because I have nothing to lose if I don't need to use it. But I have much to gain if I do need it.

Yes well, while you're living in your "Leave it to Beaver" town, some people are forced to live in other areas.

You're still claiming that because you just so happen to live in a low-crime area, the rest of us are fools for taking measures to protect ourselves. I don't care about your town because it has nothing to do with either the original article, or what this arguement is about.

And I'll bet money the guy who defended his family with a handgun is glad he didn't have you attitude on security.

One of your key points was people are killed accidently by loaded guns. Therefore, we shouldn't have loaded guns.

Over 10 times the number of people are killed on accident by Doctors than by guns. According to your own logic: we shouldn't have doctors.

I'm glad we can argee on something about each others views.

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