HairyNevus

You took my statement entirely wrong so obviously I couldn't convey my message in a fashion orderly enough to have any validity here on these sandy grounds. I failed, I concede defeat. I'll take my shovel and pail and retreat. In the end...I leave you with neither admiration nor contempt.

CingularDuality

I know that I participated in this discussion, but I think I erred... Sorry.

I don't see this discussion turning into anything positive anytime soon. I'm not going to lock it right now, but the next negative post does it. Please think about this before making your next post in this thread.

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

RYN

Agreed....my apologies for jacking the thread. I guess a very sensitive topic brings about passionate discussion.

__________________
"On My Commad, Unleash Hell"
"And Let Slip The Dogs Of War"

NewsWrthy

I agreed with Jackels Statments about US not supporting the revolt in 91. It is shamefull. What I had an issue was with him living in this country, with all of our freedoms and such, and complaining about how things were handled. Then using those excuses as to why he wouldn't fight. I really took offense when he stated that he wouldn't attack inocent muslims. Like that is what the US does. First off I don't like tha attitude that muslims take about killing muslims in battle, enimy or not but non-muslims it is ok. #2 my parents didn't want me to join the infantry but I did. If you are a grown man then choose where your values lie, and then stand firm. I am glad you voted jackel. I do not feel you have to go and fight. I do think that the excuses need to be left alone. Also killing a muslim is no different that killing any one else. It is a horible thing that some times has to be done.

__________________

blackjackel

I'm sorry that i put my parents infront of the decisions of some pompous ******* high up in governement (or otherswise).



As for the innocent muslims, well i guess i didnt clarify that enough:

an innocent muslim is someone that believes islam in the general sense that i do, or anything otherwise as long as they dont intend to kill or hurt people for insane purposes.

A non innocent muslim is someone that believe in extremist propeganda and wants to kill people soully because of their religions, beliefs...etc. Or anything otherwise.



I'm sorry, i know if i get ordered to gun down some kid playing in the street for no reason (i know, hypothetical situation), i wouldn't do it... i wouldnt want to get reprimanded and such, i just dont want to deal with all that bull.






As for the oil oh, i see you expect to be instantly pumping oil out of iraq within a year of overthrowing the government... it all makes sense now. If oil prices don't fall within a year of a takeover of a country, then we arent taking any oil i guess.... and i guess that also means that wont ever take the oil.... i see. And i suppose all those depleted Uranium bombs dropped in iraq, and the instances of cancer increasing by over 800% and everything since 91' has nothing to do with anything. Oh, and if you believe all the above then do you also believe that the US entered Iraq because they honestly and truly cared about the iraqi people? If so, then i dont want to argue with you anymore.

The way i see it, after iraq gets a government, they are going to make it pay off its debt through oil, and make us pay for ever bomb dropped on us.



And i'm really not being negative here, no attemp to be at least. But i think your love for the United States or your passion for this discussion has blindsigthed you into admitting that the United States has been wrong in the past, and possibly is wrong now.


and by "you people", i did not mean "americans" or "tg members"... i meant "you people with those ridiculous opinions"

Again, i am not trying to be negative.

__________________
Prejudice sucks:
Do not judge me by my past, for I have changed.

DarkHunter == Blackjackel.

NewsWrthy

Any leader who ordered a child or any noncombatant to be " gunned down" would never see the light of day again.

The USA has lead the charge in forgiving Iraqi Debt. Meaning that the new government will not have to pay past debt. The only talk of making Iraq pay for our expenses has been from the far left of our country. evey one else realises that the cost of reconstruction will cost more than Iraq can pay for in oil.

I have no doubt the US has been wrong, but even in error, we have and will continue to do the best that can be done to help those who are unable or unwilling to help them selves.

lastly to your first lines. I am not talking of any one High up in government, I am talking of fighting for your freedom. If you considder your self Iraqi rather than american, then it is your freedom that americans are dieing for. So you need to understand that you can blame your parents or the government or who ever, but only you can chose to fight or not. I have no problem with your disicion not to go to war, but you can not criticize how it is done when you refuse to stand up and defend your self from those who would enslave you.

__________________

leejo

For someone who doesnt' wish to be negative, you're doing an amazing job. No matter. I choose to believe the people of Iraq who walked miles down dangerous streets, risking terrorists' attacks to vote, and who danced in the street when they did. Maybe I'm just a nut for believing the people who are there, who are old enough to know, and who have actually risked anything more than an hour's drive on a freeway.

You may not be trying to be negative but you've hit a home run nonetheless. You may wish to do something positive for your community instead of shooting off your mouth about how the USA did this or that for oil.

blackjackel

I am not criticising the war, not at all....

I am criticising the reasons behind going to war (which were complete bull).

I was all for the war.

__________________
Prejudice sucks:
Do not judge me by my past, for I have changed.

DarkHunter == Blackjackel.

leejo

So your thinking is that the USA invaded Iraq, gave up over a thousand soldiers' lives, many more thousands of soldiers limbs, and is pumping hundreds of billions of dollars (and counting!) into the Iraq infrastructure and economy in a diabolical scheme to get oil?

If you have this all figured out, please explain when this will start paying off for the American people in terms of cheap, available oil or in some other fashion other than the stated goal: peace in the middle east and liberation of its people.

What's the plan, as you understand it?

RYN

Man, am I ever getting sick of your complete bulls--t. Did you find that American family who lost a loved one in Iraq and tell them you were inconveniently put out of your way to vote?

Tell me how that goes would ya? I'd be really interested to hear how they respond to you in person....really.

__________________
"On My Commad, Unleash Hell"
"And Let Slip The Dogs Of War"

DudeMan

contradiction, contradiction contradiction. sums up for the most part your entire argument.

im sorry but being ordered to gun down some innocent kid playing ball, man i swear i dont think you convinced anyone there sorry. any soldier whether on the job or not has the right to refuse his orders if he thinks they are wrong. yes it means courtmarshal but in a court you say this, i dont see a conviction. that argument is ridiculous man honestly.

oh and yeah its still all about the oil isnt it, even though the money oil is generating is going directly into iraq, and the fact that iraq now has its own governing body for the state. sorry man this war would not have been worth the bother just to get oil from iraq.

oh and let me just clarify, you bang the country you live in for not doing smething in 1991, then you complain about having to travel to vote (even though i dont think you should vote, you dont live there what say should you have over who runs it.... and i am not aiming this at just you, i dont think anyone who does not live in their native land should have a say over its running..) and to top it off you complain when something is done about it and jump on the conspiracy band waggon about oil...

i guess there is just no pleasing some people then hey? to the rest of the 50% who voted i hope this effort has been worth while in setting up a democracy.

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

NewsWrthy

Actually Jackel if you want to help, while you are in school study something that will truely help make Iraq a better place. Then when you graduate move back to your country and start to try to make a difference. I don't mean go back and try to get rich I mean some thing That you can teach others. after having lived here the biggest thing you can take back is the ability to live free. Most of the Iraqi people have no idea how to live free. They have never done it. Take back an open mind and the desire to be tolorant of those unlike you. If Iraq can be free and democratic, where all men(and women) are created equal, then all the losses will have been worth it. If no Iraqi woman is ever raped by some one who is above the law, if no kurdish child is killed for being kurdish, If no Cristian is killed for thier beliefs, If Suni and Shea and kurdish and cristian can all live together, with out the hate and death there has been, IT ALL WAS worth it. If not god help us all. oh and Take my sig (below) with you. It is the first amend ment to Our constitution. It gives all the freedom of speech and religion and allows us to be truelly free. I wish only this for the Iraqi people. Oh one more thing Keep your F ing oil.

__________________

blackjackel

I am doing EXACTLY that.

Majoring in Political Science.

And i am well aware of the constitution, specificly the bill of rights.


P.S: I would sit here and argue all day if i thought my arguing will change your opinions, but obviously we both believe strongly in what we believe. And no amount of arguement or convincing will change eachothers minds... so why bother.

This thread has made a 360 degree turnaround from what i originally meant it to go anyways, and although it has turned horrible, i still dont want it locked.

__________________
Prejudice sucks:
Do not judge me by my past, for I have changed.

DarkHunter == Blackjackel.

NewsWrthy

I understood the initial post, or think I did. I seemed to me that you were explaining how you fellt put out when you had to drive that far to vote, but when you got there ypu realised that you had not driven far at all compared to the others there. I thought it showed enlightenment. where I got sideways was when you started to run down the country and government that granted you safe haven and the the people who were fighting for your freedom for you. Understand that I am not complaining about the war. I feel it is the duty of all free peoples to help free those who are opressed and pass that freedom on. My family left Ireland because of british oppression in 1800. Every war that has been fought by the USA since then has had a member of my family amoung the ranks of soldiers.

__________________

leejo

My family fought in the revolutionary war and has been in every war since....on the "other" side in one notable war.

Touching moment in last night's State of the Union address: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._union_scene_6