UK election called for May 5th - Page 2

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

The laws in question don't mention middle eastern islamics, extremist or otherwise. The IRA and other terrorist organisation operate in Ireland, and that is sufficient for a law abiding citizen like me to be arrested.

Yes there is tagging and house arrest, but the detention under the circumstances I described have for many years been the case where national security is concerned. The removal of right to trial by jury was recently passed in such cases. The defence is not even allowed to see all the evidence against the defendent in terrorism cases for a number of reasons. What sort of state would you call it where you were arrested, the evidence was presented to the court in the absence of yourself and your lawyer, and then you had to defend yourself not knowing exactly what you were defending against? This is current law in the uk I'm talking about, not some conspiracy theory. They told you what you'd done wrong in room 101, but not in a uk court?

Root

rubbish, your claim is untested, in theory that could happen, in practise we have abu hamza...

deny that we have not given him a fair trial and fair proceedings and i may agree with you..

oh and FYI our measures are not new, they were being used at Quantanimo bay before our detention laws came inot practise.

Root · 04-06-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

you mentioned being detained a while back, well with an atitude like yours... i can understand why this would be a concern for you.

So you're saying I should be detained indefinitely because I despise politicians? Or because you and I disagree?

Root

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

So you're saying I should be detained indefinitely because I despise politicians? Or because you and I disagree?

Root

no because of the contempt you show this country.

**CingularDuality** · 04-06-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

BS, ok pal, uk elections comming up, lets let isreal join in they can if they want to.... why not... idiot logic, northern Ireland is a seperate country from both England and Ireland, why the hell should Ireland vote.

OK, I'm confused here. I thought that northern Ireland was a country that made up the United Kingdom, just like England, Wales and Scotland? Am I totally off base here?

Root · 04-06-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

rubbish, your claim is untested, in theory that could happen, in practise we have abu hamza... .

In practice, you are not going to be informed if someone is being held. No-one is informed of your detention. That is what the law permits. No access to a lawyer, no trial, no charges even. The law in the UK permits this. Could you explain to me how either of us would be capable of finding out? In genuine issues of national security, of course the detention and no communication with the outside world must be law. What on earth is wrong with telling someone the charges against them though? What is wrong with assembling the evidence and then trying them by judge and jury?

Root

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

OK, I'm confused here. I thought that northern Ireland was a country that made up the United Kingdom, just like England, Wales and Scotland? Am I totally off base here?

slightly, wales scotland and Northern Ireland, all used to operate under the UK and therefore have one leader, since England has devolved power to each to have their own ogverning body, essentially scotland whilst remaining part of the UK (hence gets money from london) has its own Pm and parliament. wlaes has something similar, and northern Ireland has its own assembly.

although my point was, Northern Ireland is a seperate country from Ireland, therefore in a referendum for its people why should it poll the Irish for their response? is shouldnt, it would be like us asking germany to decide our general election for us..

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

In practice, you are not going to be informed if someone is being held. No-one is informed of your detention. That is what the law permits. No access to a lawyer, no trial, no charges even. The law in the UK permits this. Could you explain to me how either of us would be capable of finding out? In genuine issues of national security, of course the detention and no communication with the outside world must be law. What on earth is wrong with telling someone the charges against them though? What is wrong with assembling the evidence and then trying them by judge and jury?

Root

it depends who they are in contact with, the reason the law is as such, is because if osama binladen were to be arrested, (pre 9/11) and he were planning that particular event and also planing another less destructive event, by not letting on which event you know about, you may be able to stop both.

and btw, you are wrong again, a judge will know the specifics of the case, because under new legislation the decision for holding someone in this manner will be made by a judge not a politician or a member of the secret service. and i believe on matters of terrorism a jury is not qualified to make these decisions.

Root · 04-06-2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

OK, I'm confused here. I thought that northern Ireland was a country that made up the United Kingdom, just like England, Wales and Scotland? Am I totally off base here?

Ireland was invaded a long time ago, as were Wales and Scotland, although the Scottish situation is a bit different what sharing the odd monarch or two with england. Over time the english, as has happened elsewhere in the empire, were driven back. Of course the attempted genocide, sometimes referred to as the potato famine, helped get people pretty angry at the invaders. The english have maintained a military presence in ireland for hundreds of years. People who talk about the troubles beginning 30 years ago are ignorant of the facts.

The english held a referendum to see if the people wanted them to leave, but only those who lived in the 6 counties in the north-west were allowed to vote, as this was the english stronghold by that time. The vote was to be part of the UK rather than the republic of Ireland, but the result was never in doubt as the majority of voters were english. England is going to pull out. This has been agreed with the republican terrorists. Any trouble now is down to various groups and individuals losing patience, rather than an organised campaign to remove the english. Tony Blair acutally said it would NEVER happen in his lifetime, so I would assume it will within 20 years.

I have referred to the IRA as terrorists. That they are. I want to see a free Ireland, but anyone who'll blow up a child is down there with those that abuse children and sell drugs. The english have not exactly been innocent in all this either. There was a time when the IRA was nothing more than peasents trying to recover their land. The english never had any trouble shooting at farmers who were armed with farm tools. The black and tans were created, organised, and resourced by the english. The case of private Lee Clegg murdering a joyrider (the fatal shot went in the back of her head as the car drove *away* from Cleggs patrol : murder), was highly publicised, but it was by no means the only time the army had fired illegaly. Bloody sunday would never have happened, but the english decided to make it ILLEGAL to hold CIVIL RIGHTS marches. That's what the para's opened fire on. A civil rights march, and they fired *because* it was being held. There are claims of gunshots from the crowd, but the enquiry was completed in days. How can anyone have any faith in an enquiry thats over so quickly? The Warren commission didn't get together one lunch time and produce a report.

The welsh have their own terrorist organisation by the way. They don't have the resources that the IRA have, but they're still there, and they cause a fair bit of trouble. The northern part of wales is their support base.

Root

Root · 04-06-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

it depends who they are in contact with, the reason the law is as such, is because if osama binladen were to be arrested, (pre 9/11) and he were planning that particular event and also planing another less destructive event, by not letting on which event you know about, you may be able to stop both.

and btw, you are wrong again, a judge will know the specifics of the case, because under new legislation the decision for holding someone in this manner will be made by a judge not a politician or a member of the secret service. and i believe on matters of terrorism a jury is not qualified to make these decisions.

If you prevent them from communicating, and inform no one that they are even being held, what is lost by telling them what you've detained them for? If I arrest someone, I tell them what for. I'm a civilian, but I've made a number of arrests under section 24 of PACE, and on every occasion the suspect (why does the law use that word for a criminal?) has known exactly what I have arrested them for.

You're confusing two different pieces of legislation. Yes a judge is going to make the decision on house arrest, but seperate legislation allows you to be held without *anyone* knowing if they're keeping you somewhere like paddington green. That includes a judge.

As for a jury not being qualified, they don't have to be. A jury has to be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt. That is the test in criminal cases, although the government is keen to reduce it to the civil law standard of balance of probability. And just in case they still can't make a case, lets get rid of double jeporady. Now we can keep trying you over and over until we get the verdict we want.

Root

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

Ireland was invaded a long time ago, as were Wales and Scotland, although the Scottish situation is a bit different what sharing the odd monarch or two with england. Over time the english, as has happened elsewhere in the empire, were driven back. Of course the attempted genocide, sometimes referred to as the potato famine, helped get people pretty angry at the invaders. The english have maintained a military presence in ireland for hundreds of years. People who talk about the troubles beginning 30 years ago are ignorant of the facts.

The english held a referendum to see if the people wanted them to leave, but only those who lived in the 6 counties in the north-west were allowed to vote, as this was the english stronghold by that time. The vote was to be part of the UK rather than the republic of Ireland, but the result was never in doubt as the majority of voters were english. England is going to pull out. This has been agreed with the republican terrorists. Any trouble now is down to various groups and individuals losing patience, rather than an organised campaign to remove the english. Tony Blair acutally said it would NEVER happen in his lifetime, so I would assume it will within 20 years.

I have referred to the IRA as terrorists. That they are. I want to see a free Ireland, but anyone who'll blow up a child is down there with those that abuse children and sell drugs. The english have not exactly been innocent in all this either. There was a time when the IRA was nothing more than peasents trying to recover their land. The english never had any trouble shooting at farmers who were armed with farm tools. The black and tans were created, organised, and resourced by the english. The case of private Lee Clegg murdering a joyrider (the fatal shot went in the back of her head as the car drove *away* from Cleggs patrol : murder), was highly publicised, but it was by no means the only time the army had fired illegaly. Bloody sunday would never have happened, but the english decided to make it ILLEGAL to hold CIVIL RIGHTS marches. That's what the para's opened fire on. A civil rights march, and they fired *because* it was being held. There are claims of gunshots from the crowd, but the enquiry was completed in days. How can anyone have any faith in an enquiry thats over so quickly? The Warren commission didn't get together one lunch time and produce a report.

The welsh have their own terrorist organisation by the way. They don't have the resources that the IRA have, but they're still there, and they cause a fair bit of trouble. The northern part of wales is their support base.

Root

oh boo hoo, you want to see a free Ireland, and you do this by paying taxs to England and living in the benefit enriched society we have. Ireland is made up of pensioners and Farmers, all the Youth Go to England to work because there are more jobs.

May i clarify, that these people that live in the north, "ARE NOT ENGLISH" further more the English people living in England did not vote in these elections. do you consider americans Europeans, no.... why? because they are americans who have their own army governing body ect ect...

The British army, who you are willing to call invaders because you dont accept the outcome of the referendum, would defend wales, scotland england and northern Ireland. why? because they are BRITISH NOT ENGLISH

Root · 04-06-2005, 03:28 PM

So the fact that I've seen prominent people living in the six counties on TV saying how they are english means that they were lying?

And you complain about me living in this country because I was born here. There are more Irish citizens in America than there are in Ireland, as they fled there during the attemped genocide. We should all be boxed up and shipped back, or just those who dare to speak on the subject?

Root

Root · 04-06-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

Ireland is made up of pensioners and Farmers

What an untrue statement, and what do you have against farmers and pensioners?

Root

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

If you prevent them from communicating, and inform no one that they are even being held, what is lost by telling them what you've detained them for? If I arrest someone, I tell them what for. I'm a civilian, but I've made a number of arrests under section 24 of PACE, and on every occasion the suspect (why does the law use that word for a criminal?) has known exactly what I have arrested them for.

ok firstly, the criminal is not the only person that this needs to be kept a secret from, the prison officers, other inmates and general people that person will see shall not know the inns and outs of this crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

You're confusing two different pieces of legislation. Yes a judge is going to make the decision on house arrest, but seperate legislation allows you to be held without *anyone* knowing if they're keeping you somewhere like paddington green. That includes a judge.

sorry i have not seen this as two pieces of legislation at all, infact it was voted for by parliament in febuary, or around that time that this would be a reform of the existing legislation not a new piece of legislation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

As for a jury not being qualified, they don't have to be. A jury has to be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt. That is the test in criminal cases, although the government is keen to reduce it to the civil law standard of balance of probability. And just in case they still can't make a case, lets get rid of double jeporady. Now we can keep trying you over and over until we get the verdict we want

.

and finally im sorry you are wrong, a trial by jury of any kind, is a trial by ones peers, what peers exactly should be on this jury that will give a fiar trial, the targets of the alledged attack are supposed to come into this unbiased. judicial review analyses if a judge has made error, nobody tackles the jurie motive.

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

So the fact that I've seen prominent people living in the six counties on TV saying how they are english means that they were lying?

And you complain about me living in this country because I was born here. There are more Irish citizens in America than there are in Ireland, as they fled there during the attemped genocide. We should all be boxed up and shipped back, or just those who dare to speak on the subject?

Root

not at all, i dont propose you be shipped back, but i do think you can sit there and copmlain all you want, but why would any politician listen to you, you don t even live there, by all purposes you are english not Irish.

and technically yes they are lying, they are British citizens, NOT ENGLISH... dont argue this point, you are wrong on this one by deffinition, a scotish person is scotish or british a welsh person welsh or british an english is english or british.... can you see where i am going with this..

oh and i know there are aproximatly 5 million living in ireland, and more in america, but did the british (which includes northern Ireland) cave when the americans were funding the IRA.. no... just because an american with Irish decendency says whats what, does not mean they can do it.

it boils down to again, Northern Ireland is a seperate country, and they decided their future, whether it be with the UK or with the Irish Republic.

**DudeMan** · 04-06-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

What an untrue statement, and what do you have against farmers and pensioners?

Root

i have nothing against them at all, but i know from experience that the Irish nation, whilst expanding is still largly populated by the very young and very old, the working people moved to England, there is a considerable age gap in the population.

i know because the family on my Dads side did this, i am half Irish, and one side of my family still live out there,

go to many Irish towns and cities now (excluding Dublin which is a pretty even mix) and you will see a large elderly preasence and adolecent kids but the large portion of males of good working age move out, then move back later. because the economy isnt what it could be in such a small country (in terms of population size)

its not a bad thing, Ireland is one of Europs un touched wildernesses, (being so small) and thats ok, but when you look at the economy of Britain (in particluar London) and the economy of Ireland, the natural choice is to stay with the UK.

04-06-2005, 03:28 PM	#26 (permalink)
Root Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South east england Posts: 8,839	Re: UK election called for May 5th So the fact that I've seen prominent people living in the six counties on TV saying how they are english means that they were lying? And you complain about me living in this country because I was born here. There are more Irish citizens in America than there are in Ireland, as they fled there during the attemped genocide. We should all be boxed up and shipped back, or just those who dare to speak on the subject? Root __________________ BFCL TF2 league admin

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