UK election called for May 5th - Page 4

**DudeMan** · 04-07-2005, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Dudeman, before you label someone's post as ignorant, perhaps you should educate yourself a little more on your country's police forces and just how many of them are always armed while on duty. Most of Britain's cops are NOT regularly armed with a firearm while on duty. That is a fact.

In fact, it's interesting, because your newspaper headlines specify when a police raid is "armed". I can't imagine taking down a drug house without guns, but I regularly see headlines like "ARMED POLICE RAID NETS LOAD OF ECSTASY"

Can you imagine FoxNews running a poll/debate question LIKE THIS? OR THIS?

As to whether an unarmed police force is effective or not? Well, I'll leave you to your country's rising violent crime rate to figure that out...

oh i am sick of you cing, you think your an expert but you know very little about what you talk,

every police car in the country has 2 9mm pistols on board somewhere, they are under lock and key, the police on the beat do not have guns, but in police cars they do. that is a fact.

also SO19 is a fast response armed unit, when the newspappers refer to armed police they are refering to SO19, because they are trained to use shotguns, mp5's 9mm sidearms ect ect.

as for the polls, they were for visable firearms that every officer in the metropolitan and other police services should carry.

the result of the metropolitan poll said they did not want them to this extent. further more your rise in violent crimes you keep mentioning... is laughable, the crime rate in this country is getting higher because of one thing, ITS BEING REPORTED, which if you were not ignorant to the politics here you would know that this is because the police force is better.

believe it or not cing people especially around my area would not report crime at all for fear of repraisals. thankfully because the police have dealt or are dealing with alot of the low life these days, i even find myself reporting crime. the figures you show are for reported crime, with all of your police officers being such brave heros as you like to portraye, you still got colombine, you still have shops being raided at gun point..

dont pretend you have crime under control in america, you are fooling yourself with that premise, and why you seem to take such anger at someone elses country CHOOSING to do without guns is amazing. you dont have to live here, we do and we choose to allow our police force make the call, and they say no to guns. so who the hell do you think you are to lecture a law enforcment agency which has kept me safe, living in one of the poorest areas of london for 18 years... oh and without guns.

**CingularDuality** · 04-07-2005, 02:52 PM

I'm lecturing nobody, I'm simply pointing out your inaccuracies. I don't claim to be an expert of anything, but I'll continue to point out when you're wrong in any discussion that I notice it, just like I do with everyone else here.

Britain is proud of their unarmed police force. And if it's effective, they should be. I'm unsure of the latter, however...

**DudeMan** · 04-07-2005, 03:52 PM

well... sorry cing, you jumped on in there telling me to educate myself, i never once said that every police officer in the country was armed, whether or not you took it to mean that.

and quite frankly, if you had posted before what you have posted now there would be no reply, i know for a fact the police force is working, the level of intimidation and crime has fallen, the level of crime overall has risen, only because people are reporting it, not because there is a sudden increase in crime. the cray twins were the most powerful gangs, the little thugs on the street now are nothing but that, and are being dealt with,

if you have all the facts instead of sensationalised media reports designed to engage a reader you get a different story. if i look at only reports from a news papper about america, i come up with gangs in La shootings in schools, racial hatred as a result of september 11.

bush compared to hitler ect ect, it does not mean it is true, and you are wholly wrong about the policing in this country. i know this, i live in an area where if i want car or motorbike insurance they add £1000 to the price because of my post code and its crime level. although the insurance has not dropped, burnt out cars are less frequent, crime is less frequent, i have never been attacked in what was once described as a hotspot for trouble..

do not portraye my country and my values as failing just because you base them upon an american culture and an american set of beleifs and it doesnt match.

**DudeMan** · 04-07-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

I don't claim to be an expert of anything, but I'll continue to point out when you're wrong in any discussion

Oh and FYI i am not wrong, your perception of what i said was wrong, dont confuse that, you can comment on whether you think im wrong, but "ill continue to point out when you are wrong"... sure who madew you judge jury and executioner of every matter under the sun.

disagree by all means but just because you say so.. dont make your version of events the truth.

**luna** · 04-07-2005, 05:36 PM

Dudeman,

I respect you saying that you don't like it when it seems that people are saying that America is so much better than England. I don't like that much either. On that same token, would you mind not consistently trying to say how much better England is compared to America? That bugs me just as equally.

Many thanks in advance,

Luna

Root · 04-07-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

every police car in the country has 2 9mm pistols on board somewhere, they are under lock and key, the police on the beat do not have guns, but in police cars they do. that is a fact.

Sorry thats incorrect. I've never been in the police, but I have an excellent working relationship with some of them, and I know one or two former armed police officers. There are a lot of police officers qualified to carry a weapon who do not. There are plenty more who can shoot but have not qualified.

Quote:

also SO19 is a fast response armed unit, when the newspappers refer to armed police they are refering to SO19, because they are trained to use shotguns, mp5's 9mm sidearms ect ect.

SO19 is the metropolitan police force firearms unit. When people talk about armed police WITHIN THE MET'S AREA they MOST LIKELY referring to SO19, however, SO1, SO13, DPG and Special branch are amongst a whole bunch of units in the met that are armed. Every county police force has an armed response unit, and each has it's own designation, although many people refer to them as SO19 for ease of understanding, or out of ignorance.

Quote:

believe it or not cing people especially around my area would not report crime at all for fear of repraisals.

Most people in the UK feel the same about reporting crime. It's not specific to where you live I'm sorry to say.

Quote:

with all of your police officers being such brave heros as you like to portraye, you still got colombine, you still have shops being raided at gun point..

I'm not stupid. There are plenty of lowlife scum in police uniforms around the world. However, in my experience they are generally committed, and brave when bravery is required. Bravery is not sufficient to stop shops being raided. Columbine was similar to Dunblane, so i'm not entirely sure what your point is there. Also, my understanding is that statistics show incidents like Columbine are less common now than they were 10 years ago, although they receive much greater press coverage when they do happen. Perhaps there are plans to remove the right to bear arms in the pipeline?

Quote:

dont pretend you have crime under control in america, you are fooling yourself with that premise, and why you seem to take such anger at someone elses country CHOOSING to do without guns is amazing.

I don't believe I've seen Cing say anything to that effect.

Quote:

you dont have to live here, we do and we choose to allow our police force make the call, and they say no to guns.

Sorry but I disagree. If the police wanted to be fully armed, and the politicians thought there were points to be gained in opinion polls by NOT allowing it, we would continue to have an unarmed police force.

Personally I want every officer to be armed, but then I have such foolish notions as expecting EVERY police officer to go out on patrol, instead of having hundreds in each force on desk duty. If you join my local force, you have to pass a physical to get in, and never have to take another. The next county over, you have to pass every year. My force doesn't require specials to take a physical at all, the next county over requires it every year. Hell I don't see the need for county forces. Texas has a state police force, and Texas is bigger than the UK if I'm not greatly mistaken. A single national police force would save a lot of chief constable and assistant chief constable salaries. In my crazy world that money could be used to put more PC's on the front line.

Root

**TheFeniX** · 04-07-2005, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

oh and FYI the reason for using a gun is not always to kill, a 9mm is an effective weapon in stoping someone from doing harm.

9mm guns sacrifice stopping power for ammo capacity. You can take a few 9mm rounds and keep moving. You take one .45 round and you drop. By your reasoning a .45 is more effective at stopping rather than a 9mm, so UK officers should use them. Write your Congressman.... er Queen.. er whatever you guys have.

Quote:

there ar many people who do stupid things and can still contribute to society, killing them is not always the best answer, and a 9mm can if required kill someone.

Save that stuff for the bean-bag shotguns.

I remember in class they told us that you're statistically more likely to die from being stabbed than being shot. Basically, if I'm stabbed in a fight: there's only a 20% chance of suriving. GSWs are higher. I'd wager that's because people tend to miss a lot when rapid firing, but you can stab a guy a whole bunch of times with no problems.

If my life's on the line, I'll take the range advantage of a gun. At least in Texas, it's a defense to prosecution to fire upon a person wielding a knife if they are within 20 feet of you and hostile intent is clear.

The more you know.™

**TheFeniX** · 04-07-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Hell I don't see the need for county forces. Texas has a state police force, and Texas is bigger than the UK if I'm not greatly mistaken.

Texas has State (State Troopers), county (Sheriff's Office), and City police forces. Yes, that makes three. We need them though.

State Troopers patrol the highways mainly.
City cops enforce laws in..... well, the city.
County Cops are useful because there's a LOAD of country out round here yonder. And since that doesn't fall into city jurisdiction.

IceCold · 04-07-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Texas has State (State Troopers), county (Sheriff's Office), and City police forces. Yes, that makes three. We need them though.

State Troopers patrol the highways mainly.
City cops enforce laws in..... well, the city.
County Cops are useful because there's a LOAD of country out round here yonder. And since that doesn't fall into city jurisdiction.

Ah, don't forget the City Marshalls, the County Marshalls, the City and County Constables, the Fire Marshalls, and, in some places, the County Police. We can also acknowledge the ISD Police (in large cities), transit police, the hospital police and the various college police departments.

Did we cover them all? Probably not... By far, you covered the three largest types of LEOs in Texas, though... I'm just picking nits/enlightening the unenlightened. I never knew there were so many different LE agencies...

Root · 04-08-2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Texas has State (State Troopers), county (Sheriff's Office), and City police forces. Yes, that makes three. We need them though.

State Troopers patrol the highways mainly.
City cops enforce laws in..... well, the city.
County Cops are useful because there's a LOAD of country out round here yonder. And since that doesn't fall into city jurisdiction.

Sure, but my point is that Texas isn't so big that the state police can't do their job, yet it's a much bigger area than a single UK police force would have to cover. We don't seem to have much trouble as it is with lines of jurisdiction. The police can simply roll over the county line and announce themselves. No its not quite that simple in practice, but it's almost so.

Oh yeah - we have transit police too - British Transport Police. The name is misleading though, as they only do railways. Of course the law is an ass, and the transport police force is not a *proper* police force. Their are home office criteria to be met to be considered a proper police force, and BTP does not meet these criteria, yet they still have more power than other police officers on railway property.
Root

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

Oh and FYI i am not wrong, your perception of what i said was wrong, dont confuse that, you can comment on whether you think im wrong, but "ill continue to point out when you are wrong"... sure who madew you judge jury and executioner of every matter under the sun.

disagree by all means but just because you say so.. dont make your version of events the truth.

Meh... You said that "British police are armed", I was just pointing out that most of them aren't...

I didn't mean to make a big deal of it, and I certainly didn't mean to say that American police are better because they carry guns... I just wanted to clarify a point.

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

Sure, but my point is that Texas isn't so big that the state police can't do their job, yet it's a much bigger area than a single UK police force would have to cover. We don't seem to have much trouble as it is with lines of jurisdiction. The police can simply roll over the county line and announce themselves. No its not quite that simple in practice, but it's almost so.

Oh yeah - we have transit police too - British Transport Police. The name is misleading though, as they only do railways. Of course the law is an ass, and the transport police force is not a *proper* police force. Their are home office criteria to be met to be considered a proper police force, and BTP does not meet these criteria, yet they still have more power than other police officers on railway property.
Root

Well, the state police in Texas (made up of Department of Public Safety Highway Patrolmen aka: Troopers, Texas Rangers and Texas Attorney General Investigators mainly...) concentrate on complex investigations that cross county lines and, in the case of the Troopers, patrol the highways. The Troopers don't do much work inside cities and the rest of the state police are working on in-depth cases, not street level enforcement. The majority of policing that the public sees in the US is done by city police and county sheriff's deputies.

Oh, and on a side note, railroad companies in the United States are allowed to employ police who, although privately employed, are also federal agents due to the interstate commerce involved. I didn't know this until I worked with a Union Pacific Federal Agent... Very interesting, IMO. The possibility of a conflict of interest intrigues me. They're supposed to represent the United States Government, and yet they're paid and supervised by a private company.

Root · 04-08-2005, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

The possibility of a conflict of interest intrigues me. They're supposed to represent the United States Government, and yet they're paid and supervised by a private company.

It IS a conflict of interest, but its the kind that governments tend to allow. Football clubs have to pay for the police to be present at matches, but at the same time, they MUST have police there. With 24 opening for pubs looming in the UK, pubs will be forced to pay extra for policing. It's wrong. You pay your taxes, you expect the police to do their job.

I don't know if it ever went ahead, but there was talk of selling off the ministry of defence police to a private company a while back. That sort of talk makes you wonder if Burke's found anything for the bio weapons division yet....

Root

Wintermute · 04-08-2005, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Can you imagine FoxNews running a poll/debate question LIKE THIS? OR THIS?

As to whether an unarmed police force is effective or not? Well, I'll leave you to your country's rising violent crime rate to figure that out...

Quote:

Police themselves aren't eager to obtain guns. The Police Federation polled its members in 1995; 79% opposed being routinely armed. Rod Dalley, a detective in Gloucestershire who is also vice chairman of the Police Federation, says "We police by consent. It has served us well for many years." Even in Detective Oake's case, it's likely that handcuffs or body armor would have averted tragedy better than having to shoot his assailant during a brawl in a crowded room.

I have no firearms training, but how can you pull a gun in a small room with five people in it?

The article also said " Scotland Yard now has some 1,750 officers authorized to use firearms out of a total of about 26,000," That is about 1 in 15 officers. Considering most of police time is spent on the beat, dealing with paperwork or dealing with routine inquiries such as burglaries, that seems a sensible ratio.

Whilst I disagree with you, I appreciate the respectfull tone you generally take in this forum cing

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

further more your rise in violent crimes you keep mentioning... is laughable, the crime rate in this country is getting higher because of one thing, ITS BEING REPORTED, which if you were not ignorant to the politics here you would know that this is because the police force is better.

believe it or not cing people especially around my area would not report crime at all for fear of repraisals. thankfully because the police have dealt or are dealing with alot of the low life these days, i even find myself reporting crime. the figures you show are for reported crime, with all of your police officers being such brave heros as you like to portraye, you still got colombine, you still have shops being raided at gun point..

Crime statistics are recorded in two ways: The British Crime Survey and police statistics of reported crimes. The former is not affected by people being afraid to report crime. There is significant discrepancy between the two for many reasons.
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page113.asp
The BCS shows falling violent crime, police statistics show rising violent crime. This suggests people are not (generally) afraid to report crime.

Police Statistics .............................................Briti sh Crime Survey

**DudeMan** · 04-08-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luna

Dudeman,

I respect you saying that you don't like it when it seems that people are saying that America is so much better than England. I don't like that much either. On that same token, would you mind not consistently trying to say how much better England is compared to America? That bugs me just as equally.

Many thanks in advance,

Luna

BS, i did not come up with this, i stated what happens here, and was rubbished for it, until i am shown some of this respect i dont care who says it ill respond, just because this site is prodominantly american does not mean ill shut up and do as im told.

04-07-2005, 02:52 PM	#47 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 16,405	Re: UK election called for May 5th I'm lecturing nobody, I'm simply pointing out your inaccuracies. I don't claim to be an expert of anything, but I'll continue to point out when you're wrong in any discussion that I notice it, just like I do with everyone else here. Britain is proud of their unarmed police force. And if it's effective, they should be. I'm unsure of the latter, however... __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

04-07-2005, 03:52 PM	#48 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: UK election called for May 5th well... sorry cing, you jumped on in there telling me to educate myself, i never once said that every police officer in the country was armed, whether or not you took it to mean that. and quite frankly, if you had posted before what you have posted now there would be no reply, i know for a fact the police force is working, the level of intimidation and crime has fallen, the level of crime overall has risen, only because people are reporting it, not because there is a sudden increase in crime. the cray twins were the most powerful gangs, the little thugs on the street now are nothing but that, and are being dealt with, if you have all the facts instead of sensationalised media reports designed to engage a reader you get a different story. if i look at only reports from a news papper about america, i come up with gangs in La shootings in schools, racial hatred as a result of september 11. bush compared to hitler ect ect, it does not mean it is true, and you are wholly wrong about the policing in this country. i know this, i live in an area where if i want car or motorbike insurance they add £1000 to the price because of my post code and its crime level. although the insurance has not dropped, burnt out cars are less frequent, crime is less frequent, i have never been attacked in what was once described as a hotspot for trouble.. do not portraye my country and my values as failing just because you base them upon an american culture and an american set of beleifs and it doesnt match. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

04-07-2005, 05:36 PM	#50 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 29 Posts: 4,103	Re: UK election called for May 5th Dudeman, I respect you saying that you don't like it when it seems that people are saying that America is so much better than England. I don't like that much either. On that same token, would you mind not consistently trying to say how much better England is compared to America? That bugs me just as equally. Many thanks in advance, Luna __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

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