Medicare Bill Passed (Political Topic) - Page 2

**CingularDuality** · 12-02-2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lirix

Public education is financed in large part by federal tax dollars(or at least I've been put under the impression that it is, and what isn't these days). Do you really think future voters should be influenced that early and that long by the body that it votes for?

Well, I'm a product of public education, and never felt any federal influence... Can you give an example of how those federal tax dollars influence public education? Y'know, like there's no national speed limit, but federal highway tax dollars were withheld from states that didn't have a certain speed limit. Obvious influence. What examples can you offer regarding educational influence? The only ones that I can remember involved insuring that children had lunch available to them regardless of whether or not the children can afford it. A social program, to be sure, but I don't see how it influences education in any way (other than perhaps to promote it in a general way).

Lirix · 12-02-2003, 01:05 PM

"Well, I'm a product of public education, and never felt any federal influence..." - CingularDuality

I think to answer that, I need the answer to a question first. Do you think the federal government should be helping people with "social" programs?

**CingularDuality** · 12-03-2003, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lirix

"Well, I'm a product of public education, and never felt any federal influence..." - CingularDuality

I think to answer that, I need the answer to a question first. Do you think the federal government should be helping people with "social" programs?

In general, no. There are times when the nation benefits from such programs, and there is no other practical way to implement them.

Lirix · 12-03-2003, 05:29 AM

"There are times when the nation benefits from such programs, and there is no other practical way to implement them." - CingularDuality

Outside of the Great Depression, I can think of no time in which I personally believe a social program was of any benefit. And, of course, the programs put in place during that period have never been cut when they most certainly should have been. As to practicality, I'm not entirely certain that any federal program has been practical.

I wouldn't expect any influence exerted by the federal government in this scenario to be overt(such as a spokesman coming to talk to the class). More likely the teachers are simply taught to present the material in a certain fashion(such as asking leading question along the lines of "How do you think the government should have done this?"). How much time in your school was spent talking about the state government? I believe Texas may be somewhat unique in this regard, as it still displays a great deal of state identity(While I was homeschooled for most of my education, I did attend K-3 at a public school in Texas).

Of perhaps even more subtlety, when someone asks you about the government which government comes to mind? There are, after all, city, county, state, and federal governments out there. I know that the majority of the people I talk to(IRL) seem to have forgotten that things beside the federal government exist. That bias is not limited to schooling by any stretch, however.

The federal government has certainly managed to become very pervasive in our day to day lives(income tax, speed limits, gun legislation, etc) which I find to be quite disturbing. I don't believe that the founding fathers envisioned a system like what we currently have. I find myself wondering more and more if Sun Tzu had good reasons for his belief in monarchy.

**CingularDuality** · 12-03-2003, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lirix

I wouldn't expect any influence exerted by the federal government in this scenario to be overt(such as a spokesman coming to talk to the class). More likely the teachers are simply taught to present the material in a certain fashion(such as asking leading question along the lines of "How do you think the government should have done this?"). How much time in your school was spent talking about the state government? I believe Texas may be somewhat unique in this regard, as it still displays a great deal of state identity(While I was homeschooled for most of my education, I did attend K-3 at a public school in Texas).

The problem with your argument is that the federal government has nothing to do with the curriculum that states and local gov'ts decide to use for public schools. It has nothing to do with the education of teachers, nor the certification of teachers. In short, without a really paranoid scenario, the federal gov't lacks the ability to influence students in such a direct fashion.

BTW, my public schooling was all in Arizona and California. In high school in California, seniors are still required to take a semester of civics

**luna** · 12-03-2003, 08:22 AM

I would say as an American citizen that it is very important to be taught about the democratic republic we are a part of, and how it works. How long can a President be in office? What can and can't he do? What are the checks and balances? Or locally, what is the difference between a state representative, a mayor and a governor? Is the secretary of state just some person who takes notes and gets the big man his coffee?

These are all critical pieces of knowledge so that when the child grows old enough to vote, they understand exactly what they are doing.

So, I wouldn't say that is "government endorsed" education, so much as common sense required in our society.

As for social programs being of benefit, I refer back to the school lunch program cingular brought up. Having a child in school and not starving is a rather obvious benefit, now or in the depression, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. You can't educate a kid whos belly is grumbling due to not eating dinner last night or breakfast this morning.

**Wolfie** · 12-03-2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lirix

Outside of the Great Depression, I can think of no time in which I personally believe a social program was of any benefit. And, of course, the programs put in place during that period have never been cut when they most certainly should have been. As to practicality, I'm not entirely certain that any federal program has been practical.

TVA brought electricity to rural areas that probably would have taken forever to get there. That one had a big benefit (though it didn't pull the US out of the depression like people thought it did).

Though other programs are not very effective that were started in that time period (like Social Security, when it was started only 2 percent lived past the age of 65, now the numbers are much higher. Throw in the fact that people incorrectly believe that SS is for their retirement when it should only be a safety net for the unfortunate :? ).

Quote:

The federal government has certainly managed to become very pervasive in our day to day lives(income tax, speed limits, gun legislation, etc) which I find to be quite disturbing. I don't believe that the founding fathers envisioned a system like what we currently have. I find myself wondering more and more if Sun Tzu had good reasons for his belief in monarchy.

The federal government doesn't handle speed limits anymore. It did in the past, but not anymore. Those are handled nowadays by the State legislators who by the way, we vote into office.

Income tax? The US government does have to have money to function, though I am a firm believer that the US government should only take the minimum to fund the necessary programs (like national defense). Social programs should only be funded through other means (like if the economy is going well and there is a surplus or charity). I would be willing to increase my tax rate a couple of percentage points to help out, but I don't want the government to force me to help out those that are too lazy to help themselves.

**Wolfie** · 12-03-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =luna=

I would say as an American citizen that it is very important to be taught about the democratic republic we are a part of, and how it works.

Woohoo, bonus points for Luna. Too many people nowaday don't realize that the US is a democatic republic, especially after the 2000 Presidential election (well, yada yada yada, Gore won more popular votes than Bush) :?

Of course, those that push that Gore should have won because he led in overall votes (by a slim margin) fail to realize that a true democracy would never work.

**Pompa** · 12-03-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =luna=

I would say as an American citizen that it is very important to be taught about the democratic republic we are a part of, and how it works.

http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/weblog.php?id=P2436

Lirix · 12-03-2003, 11:50 AM

"TVA brought electricity to rural areas that probably would have taken forever to get there. That one had a big benefit " - Wolfie

The question to ask Wolfie, is "Is electricity that necessary to these rural areas and why was this a *federal* issue?". While I have no doubt that electricity brings them some convieniences that we probably take for granted nowadays, I very much doubt that people *need* electricity to survive.

"Income tax? The US government does have to have money to function" - Wolfie

It took forever, historiclly speaking, for an income tax to come into being on a federal level. Most people used to consider it unconstitutional outside of wartime. I don't mind taxes on the things I buy, or having to stop at the occasional toll booth to help pay for roads. Taking money that I've earned before I even see it, however, continues to bug me to no end. Not too mention that most of what they take I simply get back at the beginning of next year anyway.

As for your willingness to have hire taxes, did you know that one of the reasons we revolted from England in the first place was a 1% tariff?

"As for social programs being of benefit, I refer back to the school lunch program cingular brought up. Having a child in school and not starving is a rather obvious benefit, now or in the depression, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. You can't educate a kid whos belly is grumbling due to not eating dinner last night or breakfast this morning." - =luna=

Ok, it's "of benefit". Shouldn't the parents of those children be providing that food? Why is that lunch provided by tax dollars?

"The federal government doesn't handle speed limits anymore. It did in the past, but not anymore. Those are handled nowadays by the State legislators who by the way, we vote into office." - Wolfie
"Y'know, like there's no national speed limit, but federal highway tax dollars were withheld from states that didn't have a certain speed limit." - CingularDuality

CD, does that practice continue to your knowledge?

And I'll see what I can dig up regarding education. I freely admit that I may be entirely too paranoid for my own good, but I swear I got that impression from something(perhaps Mom and Dad, they've had a lot of influence on me).

"I may be a paranoid slot, but I'm a live paranoid slot and I aim to keep it that way." - Anonymous Shadowrunner

fr1j0l3 · 12-03-2003, 12:32 PM

All I can add to this is personal experience coupled with what I know to be part of the new medicare bill.

Last week, I had 2 sick kids. I have a decent job, so I got vacation time off to help them out. I have decent health benefits, so the Dr. visit was only 35 bux. (above and beyond the premiums) The precriptions came to 55 bux.

Now, I'm not well off, and I'm not dirt broke either, but there goes at least a c-note in 2 days with all of my coverages and whatnot.

The prescriptions alone (had I not had insurance) would have been $75 a pop. So for someone that does not have the luxury of having a good ins plan (and that in itself is almost an oxymoron anymore) because they canot afford one, is now expected to pay more than 3 times what I pay? (not even including a dr. visit)

The bill that was passed has special interest monies all over it. Pharmacueticals, insurance companies, litigation firms, etc..

Do I think that this is going in the right direction? No.

I count myself extremely lucky to be gainfully employed AND having access to one of the more "decent" health insurance companies. I am also well aware that many others do not. What to do?

Imagine that the company you work for becomes the next Enron. You're out on yer ass, pension stolen, benefits gone, kids sick, christmas around the corner. Now what? :?:

**CingularDuality** · 12-03-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr1j0l3

Imagine that the company you work for becomes the next Enron. You're out on yer ass, pension stolen, benefits gone, kids sick, christmas around the corner. Now what? :?:

Hehe... As I'm a federal employee, I'd just be glad that I own several guns...

And I do believe that the federal gov't still ties highway funding to limits on speed. I think that when Montana dropped their maximum speed limit in the early nineties, the voters actually chose to raise their state taxes for that freedom. I'm not positive, however...

**luna** · 12-03-2003, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lirix

"As for social programs being of benefit, I refer back to the school lunch program cingular brought up. Having a child in school and not starving is a rather obvious benefit, now or in the depression, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. You can't educate a kid whos belly is grumbling due to not eating dinner last night or breakfast this morning." - =luna=

Ok, it's "of benefit". Shouldn't the parents of those children be providing that food? Why is that lunch provided by tax dollars?

*Should* they? Yes. *Can* they? If they qualify, then the likely answer is no. Hardworking people are hit with hardships everyday. So, Mom and Dad were both laid off, and are struggling to regain employment. In the meantime little Johnny does what, exactly? These programs are out there to assist, not to step up to the job of the perfectly well off parents. The child shouldn't have to struggle with hunger in the meantime.

**Wolfie** · 12-09-2003, 06:39 PM

http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001403.html

:P

Quote:

A spokesman for the American Association of Far-From-Retired Persons (AAFFRP) said the picture (shown below) illustrates how "old people feel about spending our money to benefit themselves."

**Wolfie** · 12-11-2003, 12:00 PM

A good editorial on social services by the US government

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092302/

12-03-2003, 08:22 AM	#21 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,135	I would say as an American citizen that it is very important to be taught about the democratic republic we are a part of, and how it works. How long can a President be in office? What can and can't he do? What are the checks and balances? Or locally, what is the difference between a state representative, a mayor and a governor? Is the secretary of state just some person who takes notes and gets the big man his coffee? These are all critical pieces of knowledge so that when the child grows old enough to vote, they understand exactly what they are doing. So, I wouldn't say that is "government endorsed" education, so much as common sense required in our society. As for social programs being of benefit, I refer back to the school lunch program cingular brought up. Having a child in school and not starving is a rather obvious benefit, now or in the depression, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. You can't educate a kid whos belly is grumbling due to not eating dinner last night or breakfast this morning. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

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12-02-2003, 01:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
Lirix Join Date: May 2003 Location: Aurora, CO Age: 29 Posts: 173	"Well, I'm a product of public education, and never felt any federal influence..." - CingularDuality I think to answer that, I need the answer to a question first. Do you think the federal government should be helping people with "social" programs?

12-03-2003, 05:29 AM	#19 (permalink)
Lirix Join Date: May 2003 Location: Aurora, CO Age: 29 Posts: 173	"There are times when the nation benefits from such programs, and there is no other practical way to implement them." - CingularDuality Outside of the Great Depression, I can think of no time in which I personally believe a social program was of any benefit. And, of course, the programs put in place during that period have never been cut when they most certainly should have been. As to practicality, I'm not entirely certain that any federal program has been practical. I wouldn't expect any influence exerted by the federal government in this scenario to be overt(such as a spokesman coming to talk to the class). More likely the teachers are simply taught to present the material in a certain fashion(such as asking leading question along the lines of "How do you think the government should have done this?"). How much time in your school was spent talking about the state government? I believe Texas may be somewhat unique in this regard, as it still displays a great deal of state identity(While I was homeschooled for most of my education, I did attend K-3 at a public school in Texas). Of perhaps even more subtlety, when someone asks you about the government which government comes to mind? There are, after all, city, county, state, and federal governments out there. I know that the majority of the people I talk to(IRL) seem to have forgotten that things beside the federal government exist. That bias is not limited to schooling by any stretch, however. The federal government has certainly managed to become very pervasive in our day to day lives(income tax, speed limits, gun legislation, etc) which I find to be quite disturbing. I don't believe that the founding fathers envisioned a system like what we currently have. I find myself wondering more and more if Sun Tzu had good reasons for his belief in monarchy.

12-03-2003, 11:50 AM	#25 (permalink)
Lirix Join Date: May 2003 Location: Aurora, CO Age: 29 Posts: 173	"TVA brought electricity to rural areas that probably would have taken forever to get there. That one had a big benefit " - Wolfie The question to ask Wolfie, is "Is electricity that necessary to these rural areas and why was this a federal issue?". While I have no doubt that electricity brings them some convieniences that we probably take for granted nowadays, I very much doubt that people need electricity to survive. "Income tax? The US government does have to have money to function" - Wolfie It took forever, historiclly speaking, for an income tax to come into being on a federal level. Most people used to consider it unconstitutional outside of wartime. I don't mind taxes on the things I buy, or having to stop at the occasional toll booth to help pay for roads. Taking money that I've earned before I even see it, however, continues to bug me to no end. Not too mention that most of what they take I simply get back at the beginning of next year anyway. As for your willingness to have hire taxes, did you know that one of the reasons we revolted from England in the first place was a 1% tariff? "As for social programs being of benefit, I refer back to the school lunch program cingular brought up. Having a child in school and not starving is a rather obvious benefit, now or in the depression, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. You can't educate a kid whos belly is grumbling due to not eating dinner last night or breakfast this morning." - =luna= Ok, it's "of benefit". Shouldn't the parents of those children be providing that food? Why is that lunch provided by tax dollars? "The federal government doesn't handle speed limits anymore. It did in the past, but not anymore. Those are handled nowadays by the State legislators who by the way, we vote into office." - Wolfie "Y'know, like there's no national speed limit, but federal highway tax dollars were withheld from states that didn't have a certain speed limit." - CingularDuality CD, does that practice continue to your knowledge? And I'll see what I can dig up regarding education. I freely admit that I may be entirely too paranoid for my own good, but I swear I got that impression from something(perhaps Mom and Dad, they've had a lot of influence on me). "I may be a paranoid slot, but I'm a live paranoid slot and I aim to keep it that way." - Anonymous Shadowrunner

12-03-2003, 12:32 PM	#26 (permalink)
fr1j0l3 Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,342	All I can add to this is personal experience coupled with what I know to be part of the new medicare bill. Last week, I had 2 sick kids. I have a decent job, so I got vacation time off to help them out. I have decent health benefits, so the Dr. visit was only 35 bux. (above and beyond the premiums) The precriptions came to 55 bux. Now, I'm not well off, and I'm not dirt broke either, but there goes at least a c-note in 2 days with all of my coverages and whatnot. The prescriptions alone (had I not had insurance) would have been $75 a pop. So for someone that does not have the luxury of having a good ins plan (and that in itself is almost an oxymoron anymore) because they canot afford one, is now expected to pay more than 3 times what I pay? (not even including a dr. visit) The bill that was passed has special interest monies all over it. Pharmacueticals, insurance companies, litigation firms, etc.. Do I think that this is going in the right direction? No. I count myself extremely lucky to be gainfully employed AND having access to one of the more "decent" health insurance companies. I am also well aware that many others do not. What to do? Imagine that the company you work for becomes the next Enron. You're out on yer ass, pension stolen, benefits gone, kids sick, christmas around the corner. Now what? :?:

12-11-2003, 12:00 PM	#30 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	A good editorial on social services by the US government http://slate.msn.com/id/2092302/

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