if you're gonna play with fire....

**Wyzcrak** · 04-08-2005, 02:12 AM

I tend to treat people the way I want to be treated.

Yeah, sometimes I depart from that mindset so wildly that it's laughable to ever think I had it... but... I try to follow it whenever I can.

So, when I read this story, I can't say I really feel sorry for the guy. If you're going to screw with people, be prepared to get screwed, right or wrong. It's just karma.

Anyway, it's an interesting read.

A tale of customer service, justice and currency as funny as a $2 bill

The usefulness of free registrations...

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

So, when I read this story, I can't say I really feel sorry for the guy. If you're going to screw with people, be prepared to get screwed, right or wrong. It's just karma.

Well, we don't hear BestBuy's side of the story, but it sure seems like this guy was screwed over. Best Buy doesn't have a leg to stand on and should get the heck sued out of them...

**Wyzcrak** · 04-08-2005, 03:09 AM

Yeah, based on the story referenced, it looks like BestBuy could bend over on that one.

I just get tired of people treating other people so selfishly and then crying when life craps on them for it. Call it a pet peeve.

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

I just get tired of people treating other people so selfishly and then crying when life craps on them for it. Call it a pet peeve.

Oh, I'd agree with you on that, but I thought Best Buy started it with a bit of an exaggeration or error on whether or not a stereo would fit in this guy's son's car? If Best Buy had offered to install a different stereo at no additional installation cost (which they originally did, according to the story), then I would've thought everything was settled perfectly. But then Best Buy decided NOT to do the right thing and demanded that the second installation be paid for. That's when the guy decided to pay in $2 bills, right? I'd be a bit heated, too. Customer service has really gone downhill lately.

Pretty much unrelated, but you know how Best Buy (and other stores) want to check your receipt before you leave the store? I don't let them. They have absolutely no right to do so, and I'm tired of subjecting myself to these little inconveniences just so a huge chain of stores can lower their shrinkage. I am not a thief, so I don't feel guilty about not letting them look in my bag. If they ever try to stop me from leaving the store, I'll be dialing 911 and reporting that someone is illegally detaining me.

Root · 04-08-2005, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Pretty much unrelated, but you know how Best Buy (and other stores) want to check your receipt before you leave the store? I don't let them. They have absolutely no right to do so, and I'm tired of subjecting myself to these little inconveniences just so a huge chain of stores can lower their shrinkage. I am not a thief, so I don't feel guilty about not letting them look in my bag. If they ever try to stop me from leaving the store, I'll be dialing 911 and reporting that someone is illegally detaining me.

There's an easy and inoffensive way for them to effectively do that. Put the tills right by the exit, and have a seperate entrance. If the payouts likely to be a good one, I hope they do try and stop you!

I've let plenty of thieves walk out of stores I've run, because after seeing selection and concealment, I've lost sight of them. And technically I can lawfully arrest in that situation. One of my two powers of arrest under common law allows it, and PACE allows it too. Never going to happen though.

Maybe you should take them to court? Even the police couldn't search you like that could they? No evidence you've done anything, no suspicion you've done anything. Surely they need probably cause or something to search you?

Root

Root · 04-08-2005, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Pretty much unrelated, but you know how Best Buy (and other stores) want to check your receipt before you leave the store? I don't let them. They have absolutely no right to do so, and I'm tired of subjecting myself to these little inconveniences just so a huge chain of stores can lower their shrinkage. I am not a thief, so I don't feel guilty about not letting them look in my bag. If they ever try to stop me from leaving the store, I'll be dialing 911 and reporting that someone is illegally detaining me.

There's an easy and inoffensive way for them to effectively do that. Put the tills right by the exit, and have a seperate entrance. If the payouts likely to be a good one, I hope they do try and stop you!

I've let plenty of thieves walk out of stores I've run, because after seeing selection and concealment, I've lost sight of them. And technically I can lawfully arrest in that situation. One of my two powers of arrest under common law allows it, and PACE allows it too. Never going to happen though.

Maybe you should take them to court? Even the police couldn't search you like that could they? No evidence you've done anything, no suspicion you've done anything. Surely they need probably cause or something to search you?

As a retailer, I can appreciate how much of a pain in the ass stockloss is, but I live and work in a town where most stockloss is EXTERNAL, whereas generally in retail, loss is INTERNAL. I can achieve a stockloss result that's average for the company I work for without checking customers as they leave. I achieve it by nicking villains bang to rights. That and I get to know the local scum well enough that they see me in a store, they leave even if it's not a store I work in. These are thugs carrying needles and other weapons, and I'm as yellow as anyone you ever met. If you can pull off convincing them that you don't give a damn if they hurt you, they'll buzz off elsewhere. The shop over there with the machine gun nests, barbed wire and searchlights? That's an easier target than my store

Root

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

Maybe you should take them to court? Even the police couldn't search you like that could they? No evidence you've done anything, no suspicion you've done anything. Surely they need probably cause or something to search you?

Well, I'm sure their store policy says that the clerks are supposed to ask to see your receipt and bag of paid merchandise, but the assumption for most people is that you have to show them the bag full of goodies that you've just paid for... There's nothing to prevent them from asking to see what you have in your bag, just like there's nothing to prevent you from telling them that it's none of their business.

And in order to have probable cause for shoplifting in most of the United States, you have to meet 6 elements:
You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter conceal or carry away or convert your merchandise
You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store (NOT off your property!)

So, even if these "bag checkers" find something in your shopping cart or bag that you haven't paid for, it's unlikely that they'll be able to prosecute you for shoplifting, and I doubt that too many honest mistakes are corrected in this manner, either...

Root · 04-08-2005, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

And in order to have probable cause for shoplifting in most of the United States, you have to meet 6 elements:
You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter conceal or carry away or convert your merchandise
You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store (NOT off your property!)

So, even if these "bag checkers" find something in your shopping cart or bag that you haven't paid for, it's unlikely that they'll be able to prosecute you for shoplifting, and I doubt that too many honest mistakes are corrected in this manner, either...

I assume you meant to say not ON your property.

We have exactly the same rules for arresting for shop theft. We can arrest them on suspicion without all of those elements though. The bag checkers definitely wouldn't make an arrest in the UK as you would still be in the store. Still, could you file a law suit for intentional infliction of emotional distress or something? Now all your friends think you're a thief. If people like you refuse to let them, then it stands that not everyone is checked. Maybe you could use that as part of a legal arguement?

If you break the law, you should have to be caught, not required to turn yourself in which is what these bag checkers are effectively trying to do. I'm generally a law abiding citizen, but someone seems to be trying to get thoughtcrime on the statute books imo, and that's in no way a good thing.

Root

**Wyzcrak** · 04-08-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Oh, I'd agree with you on that, but I thought Best Buy started it with a bit of an exaggeration or error on whether or not a stereo would fit in this guy's son's car?

It might have been error. It might have been deceit. I dunno.... but I'm disappointed to realize how relevant the answer would seem to many in judging whether or not the man's vindictive tomfoolery was reasonable. If your greatest justfication for assuming the attitude this man pulled is "he started it!"... ... man... I dunno... just reminds me too much of second grade, where my best excuse for popping another kid in the shoulder was "he hit me first!". :/

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

It might have been error. It might have been deceit. I dunno.... but I'm disappointed to realize how relevant the answer would seem to many in judging whether or not the man's vindictive tomfoolery was reasonable. If your greatest justfication for assuming the attitude this man pulled is "he started it!"... ... man... I dunno... just reminds me too much of second grade, where my best excuse for popping another kid in the shoulder was "he hit me first!". :/

But this man did nothing wrong. He didn't hurt anyone. He could've chosen to pay in pennies (a similar "protest"), but two dollar bills is much more convenient for the store. How can you say that what he did is vindictive?

Best Buy's deceipt or error cost this man money. This man's protest cost nobody anything. I don't see how you can think that he's the one with the attitude...

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookietester

I assume you meant to say not ON your property.

Nope, I meant he has to leave your store, not necessarily your property. Once he walks out the door of your store, even though he's still in your parking lot, he has stolen from you.

**Wyzcrak** · 04-08-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

But this man did nothing wrong.

What was the novelty in paying in $2 bills? The man was trying to get a rise out of someone.

He found himself handcuffed in front of his peers.

From a legal standpoint, sure... sue the hell out of them for all I care.

From a karma standpoint? You make the bed you sleep in, that's all.

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

What was the novelty in paying in $2 bills? The man was trying to get a rise out of someone.

Yes, he was making a point using real money after being screwed over by a store. I say again: He did nothing wrong.

From a karma standpoint, Best Buy still needs to get what's coming to them.

If you think he did something wrong, could you be specific about what it is that he did that was wrong?

**Wyzcrak** · 04-08-2005, 02:36 PM

What did he call it? A comic protest? The point is that the only reason he used the two dollar bills was to "get back" at Best Buy (hence my 'vindictive' adjective earlier).

Yeah... it takes two to tango... but, at least from the facts presented in the article, there remains the possibility that Best Buy just screwed up. I mean, I just can't identify in the article anyone at Best Buy who woke up that morning and said "I'm gonna show THAT guy." Yes, they failed, but there's a difference between failing and provoking.

Mere provocation was his aim when he woke up the next morning, which leads us to my title of this thread.

Wrong? Right? Potayto? Potawhtoe? We humans justify different acts in different ways. A provocation you think silly I may think appropriate, and vice versa. I've just observed, in my short time as a human, that provoking typically carries a risk with it. If you're going to dance, don't bitch if your feet hurt when the music's over.

That having been said... sue on, God bless America, and all that, I suppose.

**CingularDuality** · 04-08-2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Mere provocation was his aim when he woke up the next morning, which leads us to my title of this thread.

Wrong? Right? Potayto? Potawhtoe? We humans justify different acts in different ways. A provocation you think silly I may think appropriate, and vice versa. I've just observed, in my short time as a human, that provoking typically carries a risk with it. If you're going to dance, don't bitch if your feet hurt when the music's over.

I see what you're saying, but I just think that he did things the right way. He wanted to make it known that he was displeased with his treatment, but at the same time, he wanted to pay the debt that he legally owed. I imagine he thought of several ways to "provoke" Best Buy and he settled on something that would catch their eye while still fulfilling his legal and moral obligation to pay for a service.

I don't agree with comparing it to a dance either. This store didn't just keep dancing with him, they punched him in the nose in the middle of the dance by illegally detaining him. They violated his civil rights because he wanted to make a point by paying his debt with small bills? I don't see how you can compare the two...

And doesn't anyone else have an opinion on this? Did this guy do anything wrong?

04-08-2005, 02:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,132	if you're gonna play with fire.... I tend to treat people the way I want to be treated. Yeah, sometimes I depart from that mindset so wildly that it's laughable to ever think I had it... but... I try to follow it whenever I can. So, when I read this story, I can't say I really feel sorry for the guy. If you're going to screw with people, be prepared to get screwed, right or wrong. It's just karma. Anyway, it's an interesting read. A tale of customer service, justice and currency as funny as a $2 bill The usefulness of free registrations... __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

04-08-2005, 03:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,132	Re: if you're gonna play with fire.... Yeah, based on the story referenced, it looks like BestBuy could bend over on that one. I just get tired of people treating other people so selfishly and then crying when life craps on them for it. Call it a pet peeve. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

04-08-2005, 02:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,132	Re: if you're gonna play with fire.... What did he call it? A comic protest? The point is that the only reason he used the two dollar bills was to "get back" at Best Buy (hence my 'vindictive' adjective earlier). Yeah... it takes two to tango... but, at least from the facts presented in the article, there remains the possibility that Best Buy just screwed up. I mean, I just can't identify in the article anyone at Best Buy who woke up that morning and said "I'm gonna show THAT guy." Yes, they failed, but there's a difference between failing and provoking. Mere provocation was his aim when he woke up the next morning, which leads us to my title of this thread. Wrong? Right? Potayto? Potawhtoe? We humans justify different acts in different ways. A provocation you think silly I may think appropriate, and vice versa. I've just observed, in my short time as a human, that provoking typically carries a risk with it. If you're going to dance, don't bitch if your feet hurt when the music's over. That having been said... sue on, God bless America, and all that, I suppose. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

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