The WMD issue - Page 5

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/735tahyk.asp

Quote:

Saddam was not a "madman." He was a predator and an aggressor. He achieved through brute force total dominance at home, and it was through force and the threat of force that he sought dominance in his region, as well. He waged war against Iran throughout the 1980s. He invaded Kuwait in 1990. He spent tens of billions of dollars on weapons, both conventional and unconventional. His clear and unwavering ambition, an ambition nurtured and acted upon across three decades, was to dominate the Middle East, both economically and militarily, by attempting to acquire the lion's share of the region's oil and by intimidating or destroying anyone who stood in his way. This, too, was a sufficient reason to remove him from power.

again, ignoring how he got there...

of course he had WMD's we have the receipts...

**CingularDuality** · 02-16-2004, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr1j0l3

again, ignoring how he got there...

I don't think anyone has ignored how SH got some of his power. Hindsight is always 20/20, huh? During the Iran/Iraq war, SH was the lesser of two evils. In my eyes, this just makes it that much more important that we removed him from power forcibly...

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 03:06 PM

How should one greet a country's ruler upon visiting him for negotiations? Should he have spit in Saddam's face? It's hard to see how discussions would have been very productive after that.

The United States made every effort and gave SH every chance. Don't blame Rumsfeld for being polite.

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 03:11 PM

Behind closed doors and away from the cameras, Mr. Rumsfeld may have said something along the lines of "Mr. President, my president has instructed me to tell you that if we ever learn that you've used chemical weapons again our relationship will be over and the United States will have to consider you an enemy."

There is never any mention made of the nature of Rumsfeld's visit, just a picture of him shaking SH's hand. It's foolish to think of that as anything other than a photo op. It's meaningless.

Remember Barak shaking Arafat's hand? Do you think they were best pals too?

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 05:39 PM

meaningless eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Behind closed doors and away from the cameras, Mr. Rumsfeld may have said something along the lines of "Mr. President, my president has instructed me to tell you that if we ever learn that you've used chemical weapons again our relationship will be over and the United States will have to consider you an enemy."

hehehe....

ummm, he gassed his own people using weps and chemicals we sold him around 1982-3... :evil:

A year later, and we were still on favorable terms. If rummy had said "Mr. President, my president has instructed me to tell you that if we ever learn that you've used chemical weapons again our relationship will be over and the United States will have to consider you an enemy.", that would have been the break-off point....

It wasn't. :evil: We still sold him weps, we still traded... Bechtel is still over there....

Document 7: State Department Cable to Donald Rumsfeld Party, "Briefing Notes for Rumsfeld Visit to Baghdad," March 24, 1984

Quote:

...with the crucial instruction to Rumsfeld that U.S. interests in improving U.S.-Iraq ties "remain undiminished" despite revelations of Iraq's use of chemical weapons.

(pg2, sec 3)

We even gave him the green light to invade kuwait.. Official response was something like "this administration has no input on your border-dispute with kuwait"

Instead of nit-picking on a photo, let's examine why we did not cut off relations with this known tryant at this time.

Any guesses?

oh, and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cing

I don't think anyone has ignored how SH got some of his power

I just found it profoundly idiotic that the article would run down a synopsis of all the bad things saddam has done, and chose to leave out some important details. I'm aware that everyone is not ignoring this, but a majority of mainstream media is.

For those that want to know more:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

thank goodness for the FIA

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 05:42 PM

wait wait, help me out here. Where is your evidence that WE sold him chemical weapons. I haven't heard that one before.

**CingularDuality** · 02-16-2004, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr1j0l3

I'm aware that everyone is not ignoring this, but a majority of mainstream media is.

I don't think anyone has ignored it. It's been reported/discussed and dismissed as irrelevant. History is exactly that. We can't go back and change our decision. Instead, we must decide what our best path is from this point on.

That's all we can do.

Ever...

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 05:48 PM

Quote:

That's all we can do.

Ever...

We must know about our past mistakes in order to not repeat them, but yes, moving forward is what is most important.

**CingularDuality** · 02-16-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr1j0l3

We must know about our past mistakes in order to not repeat them, but yes, moving forward is what is most important.

And you don't think that every US President since Reagan has hoped and prayed that the media doesn't latch on to the "we helped Saddam" story? The people that are in a position to repeat these mistakes are well aware of past mistakes...

So.

What was your point again?

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 05:59 PM

Frij, I just read the Document 7: State Department Cable to Donald Rumsfeld Party, "Briefing Notes for Rumsfeld Visit to Baghdad," March 24, 1984.

I find your very brief quote very misleading. Here is that section in full:

CW/Bilateral Relations: The secretary and Larry Eagleburger met with MFA Under Secretary Ismet Kattani at the Department Mar. 15. They clarified that our CW condemnation was made strictly out of our strong opposition to the use of lethal and incapacitating CW, wherever it occurs. They emphasized that our interests in (1) preventing an Iranian victory and (2) continuing to improve bilateral relations with Iraq, at a pace of Iraq’s choosing, remain undiminished. To emphasize this point, Eagleburger conveyed to Kittani the Vice President’s invitation to Tariq Aziz to come to Washington at a mutually convenient time. Nonetheless, in a follow-up discussion with Dick Murphy, Kittani, professed the GOI to be “unpersuaded” of our claimed motives for condemning Iraq for CW use. This message bears reinforcing during your discussions.

To me, this document reads like a pretty clear and reasonable statement of policy with regard to Iraq. It reads like the two countries, USA and Iraq, had serious disagreements on significant issues and were trying to work them out before becoming outright enemies.

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 06:13 PM

Here's the document that talks about Bechtel:

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/iraq11.pdf

Frij, thanks for these links.

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Where is your evidence that WE sold him chemical weapons. I haven't heard that one before.

ask and ye shall....

Quote:

According to a 1994 Senate report, private American suppliers, licensed by the U.S. Department of Commerce, exported a witch's brew of biological and chemical materials to Iraq from 1985 through 1989. Among the biological materials, which often produce slow, agonizing death, were:

* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.

* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.

* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.

* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.

* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.

* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.

the senate report itself is still classified ( I think), but the list of companies is searchable...

Here's one article

Here's hundreds more

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Frij, thanks for these links.

The more people that know more, the better

**leejo** · 02-16-2004, 06:19 PM

I don't see an article from a single reputable organization or any substance in these claims about US companies selling WMD technologies to Iraq. The companies that sold materials that could grow anthrax may make petri dishes, e.g. No specifics.

Sorry. Not sold.

fr1j0l3 · 02-16-2004, 10:01 PM

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/23/210336.shtml

one list from the CDC

02-16-2004, 06:19 PM	#74 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	I don't see an article from a single reputable organization or any substance in these claims about US companies selling WMD technologies to Iraq. The companies that sold materials that could grow anthrax may make petri dishes, e.g. No specifics. Sorry. Not sold. Last edited by leejo; 02-18-2004 at 10:40 AM.

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02-16-2004, 03:06 PM	#63 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	How should one greet a country's ruler upon visiting him for negotiations? Should he have spit in Saddam's face? It's hard to see how discussions would have been very productive after that. The United States made every effort and gave SH every chance. Don't blame Rumsfeld for being polite.

02-16-2004, 03:11 PM	#64 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Behind closed doors and away from the cameras, Mr. Rumsfeld may have said something along the lines of "Mr. President, my president has instructed me to tell you that if we ever learn that you've used chemical weapons again our relationship will be over and the United States will have to consider you an enemy." There is never any mention made of the nature of Rumsfeld's visit, just a picture of him shaking SH's hand. It's foolish to think of that as anything other than a photo op. It's meaningless. Remember Barak shaking Arafat's hand? Do you think they were best pals too?

02-16-2004, 05:42 PM	#66 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	wait wait, help me out here. Where is your evidence that WE sold him chemical weapons. I haven't heard that one before.

02-16-2004, 05:59 PM	#70 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Frij, I just read the Document 7: State Department Cable to Donald Rumsfeld Party, "Briefing Notes for Rumsfeld Visit to Baghdad," March 24, 1984. I find your very brief quote very misleading. Here is that section in full: CW/Bilateral Relations: The secretary and Larry Eagleburger met with MFA Under Secretary Ismet Kattani at the Department Mar. 15. They clarified that our CW condemnation was made strictly out of our strong opposition to the use of lethal and incapacitating CW, wherever it occurs. They emphasized that our interests in (1) preventing an Iranian victory and (2) continuing to improve bilateral relations with Iraq, at a pace of Iraq’s choosing, remain undiminished. To emphasize this point, Eagleburger conveyed to Kittani the Vice President’s invitation to Tariq Aziz to come to Washington at a mutually convenient time. Nonetheless, in a follow-up discussion with Dick Murphy, Kittani, professed the GOI to be “unpersuaded” of our claimed motives for condemning Iraq for CW use. This message bears reinforcing during your discussions. To me, this document reads like a pretty clear and reasonable statement of policy with regard to Iraq. It reads like the two countries, USA and Iraq, had serious disagreements on significant issues and were trying to work them out before becoming outright enemies.

02-16-2004, 06:13 PM	#71 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Here's the document that talks about Bechtel: http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/iraq11.pdf Frij, thanks for these links.

02-16-2004, 10:01 PM	#75 (permalink)
fr1j0l3 Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,342	http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/23/210336.shtml one list from the CDC

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