Downing Street Memo- thoughts? - Page 2

**leejo** · 06-15-2005, 11:03 AM

and again I quote:

Quote:

I can no longer abide the simpering voices of self-styled progressives -- people who once championed solidarity with oppressed populations everywhere -- reciting all the ways Iraq's democratic experiment might yet implode.

My estrangement hasn't happened overnight. Out of the corner of my eye I watched what was coming for more than three decades, yet refused to truly see. Now it's all too obvious. Leading voices in America's "peace" movement are actually cheering against self-determination for a long-suffering Third World country because they hate George W. Bush more than they love freedom.

Quote:

Leftists who no longer speak of the duties of citizens, but only of the rights of clients, cannot be expected to grasp the importance (not least to our survival) of fostering in the Middle East the crucial developmental advances that gave rise to our own capacity for pluralism, self-reflection, and equality. A left averse to making common cause with competent, self- determining individuals -- people who guide their lives on the basis of received values, everyday moral understandings, traditional wisdom, and plain common sense -- is a faction that deserves the marginalization it has pursued with such tenacity for so many years.

**Pokerface** · 06-15-2005, 11:08 AM

Self-determination? How is us waltzing in with 100,000 troops and occupying the country for a decade self-determination? How is a US-appointed cabinet self-determination? How is it self-determination when the leading Shi'ite religious leader calls for direct elections, and we go "No, we've got this caucas thing that's really cool, so let's go with that."?

I love freedom just as much as the next guy, but what's happening in Iraq isn't freedom.

Root · 06-15-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

Self-determination? How is us waltzing in with 100,000 troops and occupying the country for a decade self-determination? How is a US-appointed cabinet self-determination? How is it self-determination when the leading Shi'ite religious leader calls for direct elections, and we go "No, we've got this caucas thing that's really cool, so let's go with that."?

It is freedom, because Emporer Bush and his sidekick Darth Blair tell you it is.
Root

rs_al · 06-15-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

A nice artice that seems apt:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGUNCQHKJ1.DTL

He's a media tool. He's totally bought into this "love freedom" crap, and what's more he's somehow equating it with peace.

Freedom is anarchy, and anarchy isn't very peacefull at all. Being against "Operation Iraqi Freedom" doesn't mean you are against peace or freedom. You have to recognize that this "Freedom" you are using is US Brand Freedom(tm). It's not the concept of freedom but a metaphor for our current government and way of life.

Proof: We are not free. There are all these silly restrictions like "you can't walk up to a stranger on the street and punch him in the face". If I loved face punching, I would want to live somewhere more free than the US. But as it is, maybe I can live without face punching, so maybe the US will do. And maybe some people in more restrictive countries than the US are content that theirs will do. We may be convinced that US Brand Freedom(tm) is the best stuff around, but hey maybe it's not for everyone.

"There ought to be limits to freedom." - GW Bush
And there are, and you should respect a nation's right to decide those limits. So I'd recommend cutting the "love freedom" crap, because it just makes you look like a fool.

**leejo** · 06-15-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rs_al

He's a media tool. He's totally bought into this "love freedom" crap, and what's more he's somehow equating it with peace.

You're on a roll!

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I began my activist career championing the 1968 presidential candidacies of Robert Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy, because both promised to end America's misadventure in Vietnam. I marched for peace and farm worker justice, lobbied for women's right to choose and environmental protections, signed up with George McGovern in 1972 and got elected as the youngest delegate ever to a Democratic convention.

Eventually I joined the staff of U.S. Sen. Howard Metzenbaum, D-Ohio.

So...how's your resume looking?

Next you'll tell us how the San Francisco Chronicle is a mouthpiece for the Republican party?

But I agree it's foolish to buy into that whole "love freedom" crap.

**leejo** · 06-15-2005, 11:55 AM

Can we at least agree that Luna should be beaten with a stick for starting this damn thread?

**Pokerface** · 06-15-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Can we at least agree that Luna should be beaten with a stick for starting this damn thread?

LOL!

Starting, no.
But leaving the honeypot open for us to fight over while not posting her thoughts like she promised....

**TheFeniX** · 06-15-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Root

It is freedom, because Emporer Bush and his sidekick Darth Blair tell you it is.

I resent the implication that Bush is anywhere NEAR the level of Palpatine. Palpatine was a mastermind that manipulated an entire galaxy not by lying, but by using a carefully clipped sections of truthful statements to bring about his end goal. He succeeded despite all the variables presented before him.

Bush is a rabid fundy who gives us decent "Kill em all" Texans a bad name. He couldn't mastermind a hostile takeover of a McDonalds and in 2008, he's gone. He should have had the balls to come out and say "Saddam's an evil son-of-a-bitch who funds suicide bombers and has held UN weapons inspectors at bay for a decade, even having his soldiers shoot at them. We're going to bomb him into the stone-age because it's the right thing to do and because Texans (and American's to a lesser extent) don't take that kind of crap from anyone."

I'll bet Bush is a Glock fan too ::Shudder::

As for Blair... well he's British.. and helped us blow up stuff in Iraq....or something. That might qualitfy him as Darth Maul (Violent dog on a leash, Jedi-killing machine). But he's no Vader... Vader's all about force chokin' punks and that cool deep voice.

Although, maybe we could classify Blair as Tyranus. He's old, British, and can do mad backflips when the need arises.

Root · 06-15-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

I resent the implication that Bush is anywhere NEAR the level of Palpatine. Palpatine was a mastermind

I see your point, but my point was more that both are evil.

Of course you had to lower the tone of the thread by bringing darth mule into it.

I'll save my bitching about how dark jedi never used to be darth <insert dumb ass name here> back in the good old days for another thread.

Root

Mateo · 06-15-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Can we at least agree that Luna should be beaten with a stick for starting this damn thread?

I gave her + rep for rabble rousing. Sorry.

Buck Fush · 06-15-2005, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by leejo

SH was done when those two planes hit those buildings

Way off base. SH had absolutely nothing to do with al qaeda untill Bush forged the relationship by occupying Iraq and giving al qaeda a reason to come to Iraq where they could attack us on Muslim soil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Yes yes Bush lied and 26 million people are set free. May he burn in hell for that.

Yeah, because the current evironment over there doesn't foster terrorism? The fact of the matter is that Saddam was a ruthless dictator, but never had any plans of bringing a war to us. Unlike al qaeda, Saddam had a country we could attack. Saddam wanted to own his little corner of the world and everything around him, but that's none of our business. He did pose a threat to HW, but who really cares about that? The environment over there now actively gives terrorist a breeding ground.

This stupid **** of "I don't care if our president lied because we did good." just pisses me off. We tried to impeach our previous prez for lying about having an affair, something 100% of cheating Americans would do. I'm still having a problem with the fact that we have more than 53M retards in America.

In case you can't tell by my handle, I can't stand Bush.

**CingularDuality** · 06-15-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

Yeah, because the current evironment over there doesn't foster terrorism?... The environment over there now actively gives terrorist a breeding ground.

The difference is that Saddam Hussein was actively promoting/supporting terrorists that were going to attack the United States and/or Israel. The terrorists in Iraq now are fighting their own people in some futile attempt to show how evil the western infidels are.

Make no mistake, the invasion of Iraq is an historic thing. The media headlines might make it seem terrible over there, but Iraqis have gotten a taste and I don't think we'll be worrying about another dictatorship in Iraq for a while. Freedom means different things to different people, but once you taste it, you know what it is. Us dumb Americans that have never lived without freedom will never fully understand that...

**Pokerface** · 06-15-2005, 02:03 PM