Politically incorrect Tshirt - Page 5

**CingularDuality** · 07-17-2005, 08:18 AM

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Originally Posted by improbablecause

Sometimes I feel like all humans have an auto-stereotype mode or something. It takes a tiny bit of data and starts working. It's so important to recognize that (whether my auto-stereotype mode is real or not) we do have misconceptions and overgeneralize a lot. We are all guilty of it at one point or another. But just using our brains though, we can go a long way in stopping stuff like this from happening.

I've said this here before, and I'll try to explain it again. Prejudice, in and of itself, is not bad. Prejudice is something that is a part of human nature. A defense mechanism, perhaps?

First, let's look at what prejudice really is. It's prejudging something or someone. It's making a decision before you have all the facts. Most of us think of prejudice as applying stereotypical thoughts to certain classes of people, but that's only one very limited form of prejudice.

Say your car breaks down in a bad part of town. There are no streetlights near where your car broke down, it's midnight and it's DARK. You look under the hood with a flashlight, but are interrupted by the sounds of a group of young men approaching you. They're a couply hundred yards away, but headed directly for you. You can barely see them, but you can make out that a couple of them are carrying baseball bats and that several of them are punching their fists into their other hand as if they're warming up for a fight. They're loud and seem have just noticed you.

That feeling that you should attempt to get out of that situation? That's prejudice.

Why in the world you would think that those 9 guys are anything other than a group headed home after a late night baseball game? Because it's smart to consider the worst case scenario sometimes... We know that there are groups out there in bad parts of town that are not innocent baseball players. Acting on our prejudices is often better for everyone than trying to ignore them...

So, prejudice isn't bad. Is racism? Hell yes, it is! Basing your prejudice entirely on any one thing is horrible! How can you possibly stereotype everyone that has a certain skin color. Or a certain religion? Or a certain sexual organ?

The fact is, you can't. Well, you can't do it and be right in the head...

So, am I ridiculous to prejudge people based on just two things? Middle eastern muslims? I think so... And I don't prejudge them. I do attempt to learn more about them and I do judge them after I find out more about them. "But wait, do you make the same effort to learn about white folks so you can judge them?" Nope. We're not at war with terrorist organizations made up of white folks. Does that mean that white folks can't attack us? Well, no. As Keres pointed out, and as John Walker Lindh has proven, there are white folks fighting against us in this war on terror, too. Unfortunately for me, I don't get to talk to them on a regular basis like I do with middle eastern muslims.

So what have I just said? Hell if I know. I'm still really sick and this medicine isn't nearly good enough.

improbablecause · 07-17-2005, 02:52 PM

It's clear you haven't read to understand my previous posts, but I'll bear with you.

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there are over 2 billion Christians in the world, and 35000 new ones every day.....

I dont see a lot of news about coordinated and strictly planned attacks killing thousands because Jesus said the Pakistani's were vile, evil infidels.

sorry, but this argument is bogus.

Islamic extremists despise the United states and have made it ok and a good thing to kill Americans.

Christian extremists protest abortion clinics, and while they do kill people with bombs and whatnot, they are not attacking other countries and ethnicities, they are attacking a POLITICAL stigma that still separates a lot of individuals here.... no one is blowing up abortion clinics in Afganistan (fill in your own joke about why here)....

I dont know of any other "Jesus told me to" kinda stories that happen more than once or twice a decade... and I don't know the last time I heard of this happening.... 96?

Great! Psychotic extremist Christians kill innocents in a different way, so that makes it okay? Don't be naive.

You live in a country of wealth and prosperity. You live in a country with high standards for education. You live in a country that allows you to speak your mind. You live in a country that has free access to information and news. You live in a country that doesn't arrest you because you said something bad about their leader. You live a very different life than that of the average Muslim in the middle east, of course there will be differences in what you do and how you go about doing it. It does not make killing innocents by way of method X any better than method Y.

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My point is, the religion DOES breed the hatred of Christianity, capitalism, freedom, democracy, and just about any other "Western" thought".....

How much do you know about Islamic teachings? You are merely parroting ignorance.

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and he was a black, American born Muslim. He talked a whole lot about peace and freedom... but when those didn't work for him... he changed his tune... This was from a LEADER in the religion and I would say a very mainstream look into the religion. A little on the extremist side, but pretty close to center mass......

In contrast, Billy Graham is pretty much Center mass for Christians..... BIG difference in militant attitudes.......

You have actually taken quotes totally out of context (this isn't surprising, it's done quite often to make one's point look better, so I don't blame you). Just as an example, I'll show you one:

"There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
- Your quote out of context

"There's nothing in our book, the Quran -- you call it "Ko-ran" -- that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life: That's a good religion. And doesn't nobody resent that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

This is the way it is with the white man in America. He's a wolf and you're sheep. Any time a shepherd, a pastor, teach [sic] you and me not to run from the white man and, at the same time, teach [sic] us not to fight the white man, he's a traitor to you and me. Don't lay down our life all by itself. No, preserve your life. it's the best thing you got. And if you got to give it up, let it be even-steven.

The slavemaster took Tom and dressed him well, and fed him well, and even gave him a little education -- a little education; gave him a long coat and a top hat and made all the other slaves look up to him. Then he used Tom to control them. The same strategy that was used in those days is used today, by the same white man. He takes a Negro, a so-called Negro, and make [sic] him prominent, build [sic] him up, publicize [sic] him, make [sic] him a celebrity. And then he becomes a spokesman for Negroes -- and a Negro leader."
- Your quote in context, tells a very different story

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I think the biggest point is that this religion is the biggest threat to the free world.... It is the only organization with training camps, schools, education, and vast networks and resourced designed for and dedicated to, destruction, violence, terror, and intimidation. Hinduism or Buddism dont have these, Jews dont do this, Christians dont teach it, Catholics arent killing thousands.... even Satanists are benign in this area.

Once again, very different life-styles. Personally, I feel it's a lack of education that is the problem with the world. I think it's ignorance. I believe that education is the solution to many of this world's problems. But that's a discussion for another time.

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Not all Muslims are Middle-Eastern, not all Middle-easterners are Muslim. But history has proven that the ones organizing the biggest and most lethal attacks are the full mideast garb wearing, full beard, olive skinned, male AK-47 toting stereotyped muslin that is being discussed here.

*sigh* It's obvious that no matter what I say to you, you will continue to believe what you believe. You'll continue to discriminate against a person, however unlikely they are to be a terrorist, because of their skin-colour or because of their beliefs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it saddens me.

improbablecause · 07-17-2005, 02:54 PM

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I've said this here before, and I'll try to explain it again. Prejudice, in and of itself, is not bad. Prejudice is something that is a part of human nature. A defense mechanism, perhaps?

First, let's look at what prejudice really is. It's prejudging something or someone. It's making a decision before you have all the facts. Most of us think of prejudice as applying stereotypical thoughts to certain classes of people, but that's only one very limited form of prejudice.

Say your car breaks down in a bad part of town. There are no streetlights near where your car broke down, it's midnight and it's DARK. You look under the hood with a flashlight, but are interrupted by the sounds of a group of young men approaching you. They're a couply hundred yards away, but headed directly for you. You can barely see them, but you can make out that a couple of them are carrying baseball bats and that several of them are punching their fists into their other hand as if they're warming up for a fight. They're loud and seem have just noticed you.

That feeling that you should attempt to get out of that situation? That's prejudice.

Why in the world you would think that those 9 guys are anything other than a group headed home after a late night baseball game? Because it's smart to consider the worst case scenario sometimes... We know that there are groups out there in bad parts of town that are not innocent baseball players. Acting on our prejudices is often better for everyone than trying to ignore them...

I agree, sometimes prejudice is necessary to get you out of bad situations. Sometimes, we are offered very little information and must work with what we have. Your example is very valid, given it's own situational context.

However, I'm not talking about a dark and stormy night in the ghetto, I'm talking about regular people going on with their lives in a regular situation -- taking the bus, going to work, going shopping, hanging out with friends, and so on. Mr. Muslim shouldn't have to feel like an outcast on a daily basis. I think those kids with baseball bats know how they look, they want to instill fear in others... but does Mr. Muslim? Is it fair for him to have to suffer for something that is entirely not his doing? I don't think so. But it happens.

If anything, this kind of discrimination is only breeding more contempt in the discriminated. Essentially, you are creating what you hate most. You can only hit a man so much before they fight back.

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So, prejudice isn't bad. Is racism? Hell yes, it is! Basing your prejudice entirely on any one thing is horrible! How can you possibly stereotype everyone that has a certain skin color. Or a certain religion? Or a certain sexual organ?

The fact is, you can't. Well, you can't do it and be right in the head...

So, am I ridiculous to prejudge people based on just two things? Middle eastern muslims? I think so... And I don't prejudge them. I do attempt to learn more about them and I do judge them after I find out more about them. "But wait, do you make the same effort to learn about white folks so you can judge them?" Nope. We're not at war with terrorist organizations made up of white folks. Does that mean that white folks can't attack us? Well, no. As Keres pointed out, and as John Walker Lindh has proven, there are white folks fighting against us in this war on terror, too. Unfortunately for me, I don't get to talk to them on a regular basis like I do with middle eastern muslims.

So what have I just said? Hell if I know. I'm still really sick and this medicine isn't nearly good enough.

Ahh... you've seen the light, my friend. I am glad we see eye-to-eye on this issue.

EDIT: After reading through some of the posts I've made, I realized how high-and-mighty I sound in them. If anybody is at all offended by my posts, my apologies in advance. It's totally unintentional.

**DudeMan** · 07-17-2005, 06:29 PM

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Originally Posted by improbablecause

Ah, I discussed this in an earlier post. I feel it's "wrong to say so" because it doesn't get at the core of the real issues. Skin colour has nothing to do with their criminality, and people who say it does disgust me. Perhaps it's a lack of education. Perhaps it's poverty. Perhaps it's because the discrimination against them causes them to turn to crime (a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will).

Of course it seems like everything is due to their skin colour... when it's the only thing you've ever believed to be the cause.

ok i knew when i posted this it would be misquoted, i mentioned that it was in newham london, an area quite poor probably the poorest borough, where i live, where most crime is comitted by black male youths and congregations of teenagers in general, the crime survey reported for the last year...

now it is not wrong to state that it is a fact regardless of the social conditions, i still have to walk in that area, and as a result when i see a group matching that description i am on my guard... it isnt racist its smart... as cing said you are naturally going to get on your guard if the main problems of anti social behavior in your area are in front of you... they could be as most are totally innocent, but it isnt going to stop be being warey.

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What was that experience like for you? I'm guessing horrible -- something you never want to happen again.

not really, it scared the **** out of me and was stressful, but i felt better knowing these guys were doing their job, and that my security as a target for the IRA was not being taken lightly.. i used to ride a scooter, as such was stopped all the time by police because youths of my age often ride illeagally, did i scream discrimination because of my age... hell no, the one day they stop that bike and im not on it, i will bethanking those officers... im one who believes if you have nothing to hide dont be intimidated.

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Guess what? Muslims face that kind of discrimination every single day of their lives. Perhaps not at the level of a gun pointed at them, however (though one could argue physical violence against Muslims could be equivalent). They get the stares, the unnecessary searches, the insults, the segregation, the exclusion... all this because they just happen to the Muslim. Nobody wants to be hounded this way on a daily basis. Yet so many people are saying it's fine and that it isn't a problem. It saddens me.

guess what as a white western person i face the fear of getting on the tube every morning knowing repeat attacks could occur at any time, i missed the algate blast by half hour, now who do i cry to, i have to use the tube and busses everyday knowing that up to 3000 muslims have been into islamic alqaeda training camps... "figures released from MI5... sorry, but i have sympathy for the innocent, but whilst we are having these problems the extra police searches etc etc... tough noogies, i know in the wakke of the worst terror attacks to hit london and the US lets slacken security for fear of pissing off some people...

edit... thats 3000 uk muslims (estimate) have visited training camps, as all 4 of the london bomberss seem to have done...

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I find that comment incredibly depressing. Depressing because that's how a lot of people feel. A question for you: how much contact have you had with Muslims?

lets see i live in newham, it has a large population of muslims, all the workers bar one (because its family owned and they recriuted mainly muslims also) worked for dominos pizza my first job... i went to school with about, well i was one of three white boys in my class, and all my friends were either black or muslim (pakistani,in most cases) ... some hindu also.... i live next door to a muslim family although i dont really get along with them... i would say to your question... quite a bit... believe me london is very multi cultured. there are loads of muslims here, and get onewith lots of them, but saying that i do see some of those i have spoken to sypathise with the 9/11 attacks, strangly none of them say the same about london.... but thats easy to see why....

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How many attacks have there been? How hard is it to make a few home-made bombs, stuff them into a car, and detonate it some place? Do you really need hundreds of millions of people to terrorize with? You are truly reaching for a justification for discrimination when you stated the above. (Oh and, again for the I-forget-how-manyth-time, you don't need to say all Muslims are terrorists to make it so. The implication is there. Read previous posts.)

no im sorry you say the implication is there, well that isnt fair, i do not ever say all muslims are terrorists, i say that islam and the muslim religion do have some fundemental problems, most muslims do not become suicide bombers, but i dont see half as many attacks comming from christians, and there are 3 billion of those...(taken from ddogg's post. sorry i disagree with what you are telling me i am infering,... if you think i am inferring it, stop it now... i just told you in black and white i do not persecute all muslims, but have serious questions about the islamic faith.

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But lets say, for argument's sake, that there are a million of these radicals. Now lets bring back that infamous 1.5 billion number... divide 1 million by 1.5 billion and you get 0.0006 or 0.06%. Not very staggering, is it? How about 5 million? 1.5 billion / 5 million = 0.003 or 0.3%. Still not very staggering. How about 30 million (however highly unlikely this is)? 1.5 billion / 30 million = 0.02 or 2%.

I'll leave it at that and let you absorb these numbers yourself

i think ddogg argued this well

**DudeMan** · 07-17-2005, 06:37 PM

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Originally Posted by improbablecause

It's clear you haven't read to understand my previous posts, but I'll bear with you.

im sorry i dont like this, because he does not agree with you does not ,ean he is stupid or somehow does not understand you, it means he does not agree with you...

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Great! Psychotic extremist Christians kill innocents in a different way, so that makes it okay? Don't be naive.

You live in a country of wealth and prosperity. You live in a country with high standards for education. You live in a country that allows you to speak your mind. You live in a country that has free access to information and news. You live in a country that doesn't arrest you because you said something bad about their leader. You live a very different life than that of the average Muslim in the middle east, of course there will be differences in what you do and how you go about doing it. It does not make killing innocents by way of method X any better than method Y.

africa is largely christian, with reason to hate the west, for decades of exploitation.... and the london bombers were from England born and raised, well educated... not exactly what you would call poor and desperate... these dont follow your hypothesis.

**DudeMan** · 07-17-2005, 06:49 PM

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Originally Posted by improbablecause

I agree, sometimes prejudice is necessary to get you out of bad situations. Sometimes, we are offered very little information and must work with what we have. Your example is very valid, given it's own situational context.

ok good...

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However, I'm not talking about a dark and stormy night in the ghetto, I'm talking about regular people going on with their lives in a regular situation -- taking the bus, going to work, going shopping, hanging out with friends, and so on. Mr. Muslim shouldn't have to feel like an outcast on a daily basis. I think those kids with baseball bats know how they look, they want to instill fear in others... but does Mr. Muslim? Is it fair for him to have to suffer for something that is entirely not his doing? I don't think so. But it happens

ok what you are sayng is we pay no particular attention to the persons who fit the description of people responsable for mass murder. while we are currently at war with people who dress in such a way, act in such a way call themselves muslim (whether true or not) you want our armed forces/ police/ vigilant citizens to take no extra notice of the people who fit this discription... poppycock.. pure and simple im sorry... i really am, i can see what you are saying and in an ideal world where everyone had name tags floating above their head so we could see who is who, your suggestion would work... but just as the police were looking for russian spys, during the cold war, and IRA (white irish fellas) members during the troubles with them, we should and will pay special attention to the types of people who fit the description of terror suspects...

Lord stevens revealed today, that by descriminating against Islamic people comming into this country(my words not his... but baisically by looking for the middle eastern ones and following them) (the UK) we have foiled 8 similar attempts of terror in this country since 9/11 , and for a limited time, had secret survailance on mohammed siddique kahn, the ringleader (alledgedly) of the london bombers... sorry mate, carry on MI5 make sure you catch as many as possible by looking for the steriotypes.

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If anything, this kind of discrimination is only breeding more contempt in the discriminated. Essentially, you are creating what you hate most. You can only hit a man so much before they fight back.

why because freedom loviing muslims in our countries are getting the odd search now and then or getting the odd stare... my god, 50 years ago we would probably have done alot worse, i see it we are being quite reasonable, it is the enemy of the day, they are not the first, and most lily will not be the last to have to deal with this in the name of freedom.

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EDIT: After reading through some of the posts I've made, I realized how high-and-mighty I sound in them. If anybody is at all offended by my posts, my apologies in advance. It's totally unintentional

i would like to say i have really enjoyed debating with you, and i hope you took no offense from me. this is an issue close to home for me,because as i say i have maybe 20 friends who are muslim, it is tricky...

improbablecause · 07-17-2005, 09:01 PM

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ok i knew when i posted this it would be misquoted, i mentioned that it was in newham london, an area quite poor probably the poorest borough, where i live, where most crime is comitted by black male youths and congregations of teenagers in general, the crime survey reported for the last year...

now it is not wrong to state that it is a fact regardless of the social conditions, i still have to walk in that area, and as a result when i see a group matching that description i am on my guard... it isnt racist its smart... as cing said you are naturally going to get on your guard if the main problems of anti social behavior in your area are in front of you... they could be as most are totally innocent, but it isnt going to stop be being warey.

Yes it is wrong to state that "fact". Because it ignores the true factors involved in their criminality. What is there to debate when somebody tells you: "black people are murderers and thieves"? It's sheer ignorance at it's finest.

You yourself stated that where you grew up consists mainly of blacks and Muslims, is it any surprise that the majority will commit the majority of crimes? And then there is always the issue of racial profiling. Is it any surprise that the racially profiled (who are watched closer than everybody else) is caught committing crimes?

Where I live, the wonderful Greater Toronto Area (once again, the most ethnically/culturally diverse city in the world), tell me: should I fear the blacks? What about in a well-to-do area of the UK where everybody is rich? If no, maybe it's not really the skin-colour that matters.

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not really, it scared the **** out of me and was stressful, but i felt better knowing these guys were doing their job, and that my security as a target for the IRA was not being taken lightly.. i used to ride a scooter, as such was stopped all the time by police because youths of my age often ride illeagally, did i scream discrimination because of my age... hell no, the one day they stop that bike and im not on it, i will bethanking those officers... im one who believes if you have nothing to hide dont be intimidated.

There's a difference between keeping the peace and infringing on personal freedoms. You may not care if officers raid your personal belongings, but many others do. There is a line that should not be crossed by the law. I'll outline an extreme scenario for you.

Terrorists are stuffing an undetectable explosive device into their butts. The only way to ensure people do not have these "butt bombs" is to physically strip the person and reach up into their butt to feel for it. An officer stops you. You have nothing to hide, right? You have no bomb up your butt. Let them search you!

I realize how extreme this idea is. But this is how some people feel when they are forced to do something against their will, something they have no control over, something that is not necessary. Day after day, somebody reaches up that butt of theirs "just to make sure". They are inconvenienced and vilified because they happen to match some silly profile... and they did nothing to deserve this treatment.

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guess what as a white western person i face the fear of getting on the tube every morning knowing repeat attacks could occur at any time, i missed the algate blast by half hour, now who do i cry to, i have to use the tube and busses everyday knowing that up to 3000 muslims have been into islamic alqaeda training camps... "figures released from MI5... sorry, but i have sympathy for the innocent, but whilst we are having these problems the extra police searches etc etc... tough noogies, i know in the wakke of the worst terror attacks to hit london and the US lets slacken security for fear of pissing off some people...

edit... thats 3000 uk muslims (estimate) have visited training camps, as all 4 of the london bomberss seem to have done...

You know, I think it's so funny how people imagine these terrorists would be completely obvious about their affiliations. When arriving in the country, people imagine them to have that beard, to have that Muslim garb, to have that ticking backpack. It's absolutely hilarious to me. These people, the terrorists, aren't stupid. Anything to hinder the chances of a terrorist act from succeeding will be corrected somehow. Shaving that beard, wearing casual clothing, speaking perfect English, whatever.

I bet the London bombing succeeded because the terrorists didn't "look" the part of a typical terrorist at all.

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lets see i live in newham, it has a large population of muslims, all the workers bar one (because its family owned and they recriuted mainly muslims also) worked for dominos pizza my first job... i went to school with about, well i was one of three white boys in my class, and all my friends were either black or muslim (pakistani,in most cases) ... some hindu also.... i live next door to a muslim family although i dont really get along with them... i would say to your question... quite a bit... believe me london is very multi cultured. there are loads of muslims here, and get onewith lots of them, but saying that i do see some of those i have spoken to sypathise with the 9/11 attacks, strangly none of them say the same about london.... but thats easy to see why....

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i would like to say i have really enjoyed debating with you, and i hope you took no offense from me. this is an issue close to home for me,because as i say i have maybe 20 friends who are muslim, it is tricky...

Do you suspect any of your so-called friends (or acquaintances) to be terrorists? I mean, they obviously fit the profile right? You should really sic the MI5 on them and be sure to stay away from them. They are dangerous.

(Sarcasm here for those not detecting it.)

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no im sorry you say the implication is there, well that isnt fair, i do not ever say all muslims are terrorists, i say that islam and the muslim religion do have some fundemental problems, most muslims do not become suicide bombers, but i dont see half as many attacks comming from christians, and there are 3 billion of those...(taken from ddogg's post. sorry i disagree with what you are telling me i am infering,... if you think i am inferring it, stop it now... i just told you in black and white i do not persecute all muslims, but have serious questions about the islamic faith.

Christianity has been around for a long time and has done a lot of horrendous things in the past. Refer to the various historical atrocities committed in the name of Christ if you really want to compare religious fanaticism at it's worst.

Personally, I think all religions are messed up and cause more bad than good. But that's me, and I know many others will think differently. However, I abhor the idea of centering out specific individuals based on their religion. It just isn't right.

And I know you don't outright say all Muslims are evil. But can you honestly tell me that, when you're laughing at some stupid anti-Muslim joke, you're thinking: "Oh boy, that is so funny... but only when it's referring specifically to the terrorists!"? If not, then you've just been unjustly prejudiced against all Muslims.

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i think ddogg argued this well

Really? Well, looking at history (I hope you've done some research since the last paragraph!), Christians have slain heathens left and right for the past two millennia. Clearly, Christianity creates psychotic, fanatical murderers who will do anything in the name of religion. I mean, history proves it.

(More sarcasm.)

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im sorry i dont like this, because he does not agree with you does not ,ean he is stupid or somehow does not understand you, it means he does not agree with you...

To each his own. I felt that I was mainly rewording my previous posts to him. It was not meant in offense, and I did not call him stupid in any way. It is sometimes difficult decyphering my writing, so it's understandable if somebody doesn't get what I'm saying.

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africa is largely christian, with reason to hate the west, for decades of exploitation.... and the london bombers were from England born and raised, well educated... not exactly what you would call poor and desperate... these dont follow your hypothesis.

Ahh... just goes to show you how wrong preconceptions can be (by the way, my list was created mainly as an example of other possible factors -- whether true or not -- that should be explored)! Now the question is why they did what they did. It is this kind of debating we should be doing, not whether a person's race or religion is the source of evil. More deeper and complex ideas should be explored... but they aren't. The focus is on just race and religion.

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ok what you are sayng is we pay no particular attention to the persons who fit the description of people responsable for mass murder. while we are currently at war with people who dress in such a way, act in such a way call themselves muslim (whether true or not) you want our armed forces/ police/ vigilant citizens to take no extra notice of the people who fit this discription... poppycock.. pure and simple im sorry... i really am, i can see what you are saying and in an ideal world where everyone had name tags floating above their head so we could see who is who, your suggestion would work... but just as the police were looking for russian spys, during the cold war, and IRA (white irish fellas) members during the troubles with them, we should and will pay special attention to the types of people who fit the description of terror suspects...

Wait, wait, wait... I thought you were at war with terrorism? Are you saying you're actually at war with Muslims? I think these terrorists have really done quite a good job at turning you against Islam. It definitely gives them more recruiting power!

I really can't say anything that will sway you from your stance. I don't feel a huge number of unwilling participants should have to suffer for anything they have no control over. You see things differently. Agree to disagree is the only option, really.

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Lord stevens revealed today, that by descriminating against Islamic people comming into this country(my words not his... but baisically by looking for the middle eastern ones and following them) (the UK) we have foiled 8 similar attempts of terror in this country since 9/11 , and for a limited time, had secret survailance on mohammed siddique kahn, the ringleader (alledgedly) of the london bombers... sorry mate, carry on MI5 make sure you catch as many as possible by looking for the steriotypes.

Err... I think you are really, really misquoting him. I had no idea who "Lord Stevens" was, so I did a Google search and found this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

I'm assuming that is the one you're talking about. Nowhere does it say they used racial/religious profiling. In fact, he says something to the contrary:

"In my view the London bombers will not fit the caricatured Al Qaeda fanatic from some backward village in Algeria or Afghanistan.

They will be apparently ordinary British citizens, young men conservatively and cleanly dressed and probably with some higher education."

Guess such discrimination doesn't really work after all.

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why because freedom loviing muslims in our countries are getting the odd search now and then or getting the odd stare... my god, 50 years ago we would probably have done alot worse, i see it we are being quite reasonable, it is the enemy of the day, they are not the first, and most lily will not be the last to have to deal with this in the name of freedom.

I really hate it when people say how "things were worse before" as a justification for bad things done today. It's a fallacy and I don't see any reason I should respond to it.

Okay, I'm really spending way too much time replying to each and every comment made to me. It's clear my views aren't in line with the majority views here (I'm being ganged up on by over five of you!). I'm going to have to start being more picky with my replies, so forgive me if I skip something. Oh, and I hope at least some lurkers have been swayed by my posts.

**CingularDuality** · 07-18-2005, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by improbablecause

Okay, I'm really spending way too much time replying to each and every comment made to me. It's clear my views aren't in line with the majority views here (I'm being ganged up on by over five of you!). I'm going to have to start being more picky with my replies, so forgive me if I skip something. Oh, and I hope at least some lurkers have been swayed by my posts.

Swayed to what? Of what are you trying to convinces us?

**=DdogG=** · 07-18-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by improbablecause

Really? Well, looking at history (I hope you've done some research since the last paragraph!), Christians have slain heathens left and right for the past two millennia. Clearly, Christianity creates psychotic, fanatical murderers who will do anything in the name of religion. I mean, history proves it.

(More sarcasm.)

I cannot say that any religion on the planet is perfect, if it were, there would not be other religions. My point was simply that TODAY, this century, Islamic beliefs are the reason behind most of the devastation and terrorism, and the only real organization dedicated to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by improbablecause

To each his own. I felt that I was mainly rewording my previous posts to him. It was not meant in offense, and I did not call him stupid in any way. It is sometimes difficult decyphering my writing, so it's understandable if somebody doesn't get what I'm saying.

really, I thought your use of the word "uneducated" was pretty close to that, but I was not offended.... My use of Malcolm X's quotes were taken straight from the internet, checked over 5 different sites, and all of them quoted that "snippet" from his speech. I know there is more to the quote. My point in quoting him was that violence was a very real and integral part of his teaching. You will not find main-stream Christian, Bhuddist, Hindu, Jewish, or Catholic leaders with the same teachings. He was a very loud voice for the religion, and I think a very good indicator of where the teachings lead.

My summation of his interpretation of the Quaran= "As long as you get what you think you deserve, and are not imposed upon in any way, you should be peaceful, otherwise do whatever you think needed to achieve the afore-mentioned things."

Not all Islam feels this way, but enough do to be dangerous. I think most of the people here see that lately, Muslims are at the root of terrorism, and if it were Hispanic, Black, or Asian doing all this damage, we would be stopping them in airports instead...... You cannot afford to not have some degree of suspicion when thousands of people have been killed by the same demographic.....

The police do it every day, "6'0" 20's white male driving a dark coupe" will get a lot of people pulled over.... If you match the description of a suspect, then you can expect to be questioned.

**leejo** · 07-18-2005, 11:39 AM

Cing may recall a month or so ago there was a drive-by shooting in Dallas that involved some dudes standing up through a sunroof and spraying another car with an assault rifle. Seems like it was on Preston, which I used to live near. Anyway, the description or the suspect (murderer) and the vehicle was "fancy rims".

**Pokerface** · 07-18-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

really, I thought your use of the word "uneducated" was pretty close to that, but I was not offended.... My use of Malcolm X's quotes were taken straight from the internet, checked over 5 different sites, and all of them quoted that "snippet" from his speech. I know there is more to the quote. My point in quoting him was that violence was a very real and integral part of his teaching. You will not find main-stream Christian, Bhuddist, Hindu, Jewish, or Catholic leaders with the same teachings. He was a very loud voice for the religion, and I think a very good indicator of where the teachings lead.

There are those who suffer in silence, and those who believe that what they think is right is something worth fighting for. Violence in and of itself wasn't an integral part of Malcolm X's teachings; the need for change was. Both Malcolm X and MLK Jr. knew that change was required in order for the world to get where it needed to be, and in this respect, they are quite similar. MLK took a more heralded approach (you can't blame white people for liking the peaceful protest over the fiery approach of MX), but the two men are closer than most people are willing to believe. Both men worked toward respect for their race; MLK thought that with respect comes power, and MX thought that through power comes respect.

Another thing to remember is that MX espoused the Nation of Islam; he was not a member of its hierarchy (to my recollection, at least). I'd not have labelled him a mainstream religious leader anymore than I would label GWB a mainstream religious leader.

07-18-2005, 11:39 AM	#70 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Politically incorrect Tshirt Cing may recall a month or so ago there was a drive-by shooting in Dallas that involved some dudes standing up through a sunroof and spraying another car with an assault rifle. Seems like it was on Preston, which I used to live near. Anyway, the description or the suspect (murderer) and the vehicle was "fancy rims".

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