Politically incorrect Tshirt - Page 8

**leejo** · 07-20-2005, 01:05 PM

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Try and understand why these people are fighting so hard against the coalition forces.

To what end? I don't try to understand why a gang member shoots a member of another gang, or why Dave Koresh's followers decided to stick with him when the fan began to spray dookie-like particles around the room.

I believe they fight because someone is telling them it's expected of them and they believe it.

I think there are two approaches to this problem. One way is to try to psycho-analyze "these people" which, I think, is a form of bigotry since "these people" become a group whose behavior and feelings one then tries to manipulate. Another way is to examine the conditions that terrorism and, specifically, radical islamic terrorism requires to exist, grow, train, plan, and execute their attacks. Those are concrete things that can be targeted.

You wouldn't try to win the war on drugs by solving boredom, lonliness, insecurity, thrill seeking or the many other reasons why people choose to use would you? Let's stamp out anger! It just doesn't make sense.

**Pokerface** · 07-20-2005, 02:24 PM

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Originally Posted by leejo

You wouldn't try to win the war on drugs by solving boredom, lonliness, insecurity, thrill seeking or the many other reasons why people choose to use would you? Let's stamp out anger! It just doesn't make sense.

That makes a TON of sense. If you get at the root cause of things, the symptooms go away. Why is Johnny doing drugs? If he's seeking thrills, sign him up for the ROTC: that kind of thing. You solve the symptom and find an outlet for the underlying issue.

The same can be said for terrorism. The answers might not be as cut and dry as "if he's lonely we'll buy him a puppy" but understanding the issues is the real key to putting a stop to all this. Stomping a sector of the world flat because we can might make us feel better, but it's not getting at the root cause of the problem, just a symptom.

Rahn · 07-20-2005, 02:37 PM

^ How do you stop people from killing EVERYONE but their own kind?

Some of these radicals want everyone who isn't Islamic dead. How do you go about getting around that?

**Pokerface** · 07-20-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahn

^ How do you stop people from killing EVERYONE but their own kind?

Some of these radicals want everyone who isn't Islamic dead. How do you go about getting around that?

What sort of bait question is that? Do you really think that these radicals are out to kill everyone? Really?

**leejo** · 07-20-2005, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Pokerface

That makes a TON of sense. If you get at the root cause of things, the symptooms go away. Why is Johnny doing drugs? If he's seeking thrills, sign him up for the ROTC: that kind of thing. You solve the symptom and find an outlet for the underlying issue.

The same can be said for terrorism. The answers might not be as cut and dry as "if he's lonely we'll buy him a puppy" but understanding the issues is the real key to putting a stop to all this. Stomping a sector of the world flat because we can might make us feel better, but it's not getting at the root cause of the problem, just a symptom.

If you're Johnny's mother, then I think you've hit the nail on the head. If you're talking about the government's role in Johnny's life, then I disagree. I do not want government deciding what I must do when I feel tired or lonely.

Who's stomping a sector of the world flat? That remains an option, but it's certainly not the one that's being implemented now.

**TheFeniX** · 07-20-2005, 03:17 PM

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Originally Posted by leejo

To what end? I don't try to understand why a gang member shoots a member of another gang, or why Dave Koresh's followers decided to stick with him when the fan began to spray dookie-like particles around the room.

And because you don't understand your enemy, you are doomed to never be able to fully defeat them.

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I believe they fight because someone is telling them it's expected of them and they believe it.

Or they fight because people are coming into their country and trying to cut their own power base down.

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I think there are two approaches to this problem. One way is to try to psycho-analyze "these people" which, I think, is a form of bigotry since "these people" become a group whose behavior and feelings one then tries to manipulate. Another way is to examine the conditions that terrorism and, specifically, radical islamic terrorism requires to exist, grow, train, plan, and execute their attacks. Those are concrete things that can be targeted.

How we fight them is irrelevant to me: I'm not interested in arguing it. What I am interested is that people realize that you're living in a pipe-dream if you think the US is 100% right and these terrorists are 100% wrong.

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You wouldn't try to win the war on drugs by solving boredom, lonliness, insecurity, thrill seeking or the many other reasons why people choose to use would you? Let's stamp out anger! It just doesn't make sense.

No, I'd rather spend billions of my tax dollars on prosecuting drug users and crow to the media about how we seized another 15 tons of crack, all the while covering up the fact that the war on drugs is a complete and total failure.

Oh wait, that's the DEAs stance.

If you don't underestand why people are doing drugs, you will never be able to fight against them effectively. You bring up an awesome analogy though. The DEA has no concern for WHY people do drugs. They only care about providing a sense of fear to parents and voters about how their kids are being corrupted by Columbian's and other drug dealers. All the while they can keep increasing their funding and not have to actually do anything worthwhile.

Rahn · 07-20-2005, 03:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Pokerface

What sort of bait question is that? Do you really think that these radicals are out to kill everyone? Really?

Read up. Not all but some, if not most.

"The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe."

The Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alaihi Wasallam) said:
((أمرت أن أقاتل الناس حتى يقولوا لا إله إلا الله))
“I was commanded to fight the people until they say ‘There is no god but Allah’.”

A quick search through google turn this up, I'm sure you can find more. I'll try later after work.

**leejo** · 07-20-2005, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by TheFeniX

How we fight them is irrelevant to me: I'm not interested in arguing it. What I am interested is that people realize that you're living in a pipe-dream if you think the US is 100% right and these terrorists are 100% wrong.

Sure, but that's not a terribly apt observation is it? Who says we're 100% right and they're 100% wrong? The issue is that their method, terrorism, is 100% unacceptable.

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If you don't underestand why people are doing drugs, you will never be able to fight against them effectively.

I disagree. The reason why we aren't able to fight drugs effectively is that the war on drugs lacks political support at the grassroots level. The People are voting with their feet and their pocketbooks. What the people really want, it seems, is drug control, or drug management. Something between temperance and Saturday night, 1978 in the grotto at the Playboy mansion. As long as policy remains out of step with what pepole want, it's going to fail.

However, if we threw the might of our military into the drug war as enthusiastically as the GWOT, I have no doubt but that drug trafficking across our borders would dry to a trickle within weeks, and within months it would be a risky and expensive habit indeed.

rs_al · 07-20-2005, 04:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Rahn

"The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe."

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Islam."

oops, that's a misquote. What she really said was:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

Just because Ann Coulter is obviously too important of a valued author to strap on explosives and blow herself up doesn't mean she wouldn't under more desperate circumstances.

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The Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alaihi Wasallam) said:
((أمرت أن أقاتل الناس حتى يقولوا لا إله إلا الل&#1607)
“I was commanded to fight the people until they say ‘There is no god but Allah’.”

In the bible, there's this part with these commandments. There's like 8 or 9 of them. Maybe more. But anyway, one of these commandments runs the same lines as that one, "You shall have no other gods besides Me". As an example of what this commandment entails, Moses kills off half his tribe for violating the commandment, and the poor saps didn't even get a chance to read the commandments before Moses went all holy vengence on them. This is in the foundation of both Judaism and Christianity.

For every quote you'll find of Muslim radicals or Koran writing, there's a Christian radical and Bible quote to match. And for every Jihad, there is a Crusade.

**leejo** · 07-20-2005, 04:55 PM

I don't see your point. What do Bible and Koran quotes have to do with how one interprets jihad or current events? What does Ann Coulter, even? She's nothing more than bizarro world's Rosie O'Donnell.

**DudeMan** · 07-20-2005, 05:49 PM

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Originally Posted by improbablecause

I'll rephrase. The crime survey tells you black male youths are committing the most crime. Great, now we know exactly what the problem on the streets are! ... Oh wait, no we don't. You continually tell me it depends on the area. I agree. But what about the area? Certainly not the skin-colour. Did the crime survey try to provide you other factors about why the crime is occurring? You haven't learned anything more other than the fact that crimes are mostly committed by black males. Now we're back at square one.

im sorry i am puzzled, i tell you about a prejudice i have in my area, whree i know the social background, and you start telling me, this prejudice applys nationally... well your wrong. there are varying levels of stupidity in any country, and stating the facts as fact should not be dumbed down to cater for that. the crime survey found these statistics to be true, and they were one of many different findings, male drivers between the ages of 18-25 cause most accidents ect ect... the only reason this became an issue was because someone started arguing like you.. the fact that black was mentioned. well im sorry but i do see (in your arguments a certain degree of dont use colour no matter what, and if you do it means this is your main point.) the fact is the male youths being black was ONE of the characteristics of this crime. not THE characteristics, however, despite me offering from the beggining other factors, (newham deprived, etc) you chose to focus on the fact i mentioned they were black.... and its a common kneejerk reaction to this kind of argument.

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I'm interested in figuring out solutions to problems before they occur. That clearly won't happen if the public isn't interested it too. And they won't be if the only information they ever receive is that "black male youths are committing the most crimes". Things like that promote ignorance. Perhaps I'm striving for a too idealistic world, but the planet needs it's optimists.

fine be optimistc, thats great but do try to take on board that i told you of the deprived area with high concentration of ethnic people, and all you say was they are black committing crime and in london.

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The thing is, when somebody tells you blacks are committing most of the crimes in area X, they'll overgeneralize and think blacks must commit the most crimes, period. You may not do that personally, but I guarantee you that a whole lot of others do. It creates racial tension and brings up racial discrimination no matter the original intentions.

no sorry, this is you thinking for the rest of us again, and IMO in Londond where i live, with a very high mix of cultures this is totally untrue.

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I think the reason we're not understanding each other is because you feel I'm talking about just you. I'm not. I'm talking about human beings as a whole because, honestly, the individual means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Be like a sociologist and pull yourself away from the micro-level and look at the macro-level.

sorry when you quote my post then talk about how you feel people who say (effectivly what i had said in your mind) are iggnorant or whatever you said, you are applying this to me. and in any case, you are thinking for fat too many people.

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I'm glad you agree.

erm sure...

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It is helpful. It gives you a glimpse as to how some people feel about being centered out, and having to submit themselves to unwarranted scrutiny. You may not think being stopped in an airport and searched to be a horrid experience, but that doesn't mean that others don't... especially when they're subjected to it constantly.

man things must be absolute chaos in america,

i say that because this isnt happeneing here at all, have you actually had first hand experience of these "Constant" things, how much of this have you heard from radio or news, and remembering to make a story the media hypes things, how bad is it really. because given my experience it isnt that bad....

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Wrong. I want something to be done, but I doubt racial/religious profiling is helping very much, if at all. It is borderline racial segregation seen not 50 years ago.

well i dont think it is, if the bombers are generally, male, quite young, muslim, then i am just wasting resources looking for a elderly white woman.

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I repeat... my examples were just that: examples. Merely ideas as to other factors that could be explored, but are not explored due to the focus on you-know-what.

well if you will excuse me this is what i dont like, you say they are just ideas, but you are applying these ideas to the public at large, in fact i would go as far to say you are prejudging the white/christian population of america and tarring them with this uninformed inability to think for them selves media machines. i dont see it here.

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You've misunderstood my post. I never said that is what your authorities look solely for, I said that's what the average person looks solely for. People bounce up and down with this idea and do not allow debate of other possible factors. Heck, even you've said it works great. I don't.

well no i agree with racial profilling because it aims your authorities in a certain direction, and i spoke of prejudice not always being bad for reasons i have already said... i fail to see where i suggested the regular joes should be profiling and searching these individuals... because that would be unlawful anyway.

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I don't seem to understand what you're ranting about here or how it connects to what I said before. But anyway, you haven't been investigated by the MI5 for one simple reason: because you're white.

no its because i dont fit the profile although i thought you might say this, ill change my initial statement now, because i actually think it highly possible i have been investigated... i have family on the boarde of northern ireland, but live in the south i live in Engalnd, and constantly visit. during the troubles this may have looked odd...

and i doubt during these troubles that MI5 were looking for islamic middleastern IRA members... as i say, profiling helped then and it will now.

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So... are you going to turn them in or what?

you misunderstand me, i siad no i dont suspect them because i trust them, i know alot about them, my point was although i may be wrong, you cannot expect me to give the same trust to someone i dont know...

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I doubt it. They were the majority in power throughout the past few millenia.

i fail to see how that is relevent.

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How will you go about doing this? After all, you admitted yourself that the London bombers do not fit the stereotypes. So what's the point of looking for the "typical" Islamic extremist (whatever that means) if none of the stereotypes even apply?

tell me, if they did not fit the bill, and as of yet we (the public) have limited information, why was mohamed siddique khan investigated by the MI5.... the fact is, these boys, or at least the ringleader, did set alarm belles ringing..

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I laugh at racist jokes all the time. Hell, I love them. My friends of various ethnicities will throw some at me, I throw some back at them. We all think it's hilarious and laugh our asses off. But we do it all out of fun and know we don't mean anything by it. We're laughing at racist stupidity more than anything.

I doubt the same can be said about this t-shirt. It's sending a negative message out that you hate these Muslims. There's an underlying animosity beneath the exterior whether that's acknowledged or not. A public display of such is vastly different from close friends teasing one another.

ok i totally disagree here, having the word infidel on your shirt and embracing the demonised word used to describe you by TERRORISTS, is not or should not if most muslims dont believe we are, insulting to muslims as a whole... do i as a white man get slighted when a black man calls another black man a nigger... hell no, they embraced a word used to undermine them.

and the other one yes its a racial joke, but a joke none the less, as i have said previous i like the one about the olsen twins, dont mean i like kiddie fiddlers.

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Actually, women are still second-class citizens in the wonderful westernized culture we live in. There's a reason they don't make as much money as a man doing the same job. Plus the glass ceiling and all that. Yet another discussion for another time.

yeah your right, i remember now, my mum wares a head scarf to stop other men looking at her, (as part of the religion and teachings from the qu'ran) she has to walk 3 paces behind me, etc etc... there is a difference... and one we are still learning yes.

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Which are?

well ok, as i tried to illustrate before, christians when the were doing the witch hunts, had the backing of the leaders and alot of the people, as does many leaders of the islamic faith, and i can name one, and know of 3 just in England with its tine proportion of muslims compared to the billions you talk of.. the fact is christians dont do witch hunts any more, and suicide bombings with the backing of some religious leaders is still occuring,

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There's a difference between laws, rules, and regulations versus emotions. The justice system was developed in such a way to avoid emotional involvement in the decision-making process. How I feel should have no bearing on what is done. Zero.

i never ask you about laws,....

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Is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770 the article you were talking about? I mean, if you'd like, we could argue back and forth without knowing what the other is talking about. But if the linked article is the one you're talking about, there is really nothing in there that even remotely mentions use of racial/religious profiling in the least bit, only something to the contrary (as I said before). You're putting words in his mouth using your own opinions, so I don't see how I was unfair at all.

ok ill retract that comment, or atleast for arguments sake, but i clearly stated it was my opinion... thats why it was unfair...

and for the record..

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You're putting words in his mouth using your own opinions,

wow that is rich comming from you... you constantly use the steriotypical white man to voice your opinions of what you think is happening... but thats fine....

**CingularDuality** · 07-20-2005, 05:57 PM

THESE GUYS have found the solution...

**DudeMan** · 07-20-2005, 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by CingularDuality

THESE GUYS have found the solution...

ha ha ha.... and eeew...

Rahn · 07-20-2005, 07:20 PM

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Originally Posted by rs_al

"You shall have no other gods besides Me". As an example of what this commandment entails, Moses kills off half his tribe for violating the commandment, and the poor saps didn't even get a chance to read the commandments before Moses went all holy vengence on them. This is in the foundation of both Judaism and Christianity.

...so where are Christians cutting off heads, kidnapping, killing, torturing people who disobey this commandment? I'll go and kill them too but they arn't the ones bombing/attacking London, Spain, India, Iraq, Afgahnistan, Saudi Arabia, (lol, I actually forgot to put the U.S. in this list...it's too ****ing long) etc.

These people are #1. That is why we are focused on them and must meet them with force. They don't understand anything else. (Ransoms/demands)

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Originally Posted by rs_al

For every quote you'll find of Muslim radicals or Koran writing, there's a Christian radical and Bible quote to match. And for every Jihad, there is a Crusade.

So what? I'm not defending a religion yet you keep bringing up other religions to try and some how find a fault in my point. These are ISLAMIC GROUPS, you act like they don't exist and in some way try to defend their actions.

**TheFeniX** · 07-20-2005, 11:33 PM

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Originally Posted by leejo

Sure, but that's not a terribly apt observation is it? Who says we're 100% right and they're 100% wrong? The issue is that their method, terrorism, is 100% unacceptable.

Really? An apt point brought up by another poster in the past: What about when American military forces decided on the detonation of nuclear devices over both Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Those were heavy population centers with no real strategic military targets.

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I disagree. The reason why we aren't able to fight drugs effectively is that the war on drugs lacks political support at the grassroots level. The People are voting with their feet and their pocketbooks. What the people really want, it seems, is drug control, or drug management. Something between temperance and Saturday night, 1978 in the grotto at the Playboy mansion. As long as policy remains out of step with what pepole want, it's going to fail.

The point is: fighting the supply side is not working and no one is doing anything to combat the demand side because that would entail learning what about the land of the free makes so many turn to chemicals for "happiness."

Understanding and knowledge are never bad things when looking at the "larger picture." Yes, I'm using an abolsute on that one.

Hence: my arguement is that you should understand a society or belief system before you mark them for destruction. You should also be ready to analyze your own internal evils before passing judgement on so many.

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However, if we threw the might of our military into the drug war as enthusiastically as the GWOT, I have no doubt but that drug trafficking across our borders would dry to a trickle within weeks, and within months it would be a

07-20-2005, 02:37 PM	#108 (permalink)
Rahn Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Age: 23 Posts: 127	Re: Politically incorrect Tshirt ^ How do you stop people from killing EVERYONE but their own kind? Some of these radicals want everyone who isn't Islamic dead. How do you go about getting around that? __________________ I'm not the Killer Man... I'm the Killer Man's son... But I'll do the killing... Until the Killer Man comes...

07-20-2005, 04:55 PM	#115 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Politically incorrect Tshirt I don't see your point. What do Bible and Koran quotes have to do with how one interprets jihad or current events? What does Ann Coulter, even? She's nothing more than bizarro world's Rosie O'Donnell.

07-20-2005, 05:57 PM	#117 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,078	Re: Politically incorrect Tshirt THESE GUYS have found the solution... __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

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