NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags - Page 2

**leejo** · 07-22-2005, 12:00 PM

Haha Squid I know where you get your morning news, ya right wing nut-job!

I agree with your statement about applying "reasonable" restrictions to using public transportation.

This debate about civil liberties vs. physical security reminds me of people who don't wear seat belts because they fear being stuck in a car they can't get out of. There isn't a single answer that works for every car accident and there isn't a single position that works for each instance in which a civil liberty and security conflict. So we make choices, hopefully "reasonable" choices.

**leejo** · 07-22-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Oh and for the record: I am responsible for my own security. I don't expect protection from any police officer. The supreme court has decided that the state is not responsible for the protection of an individual, so I take steps to protect myself.

That's another interesting approach NY City could take. How about instead of random searches they allow the citizens to arm themselves? How about that approach, civil libertarians?

SmokingTarpan · 07-22-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

This debate about civil liberties vs. physical security reminds me of people who don't wear seat belts because they fear being stuck in a car they can't get out of. There isn't a single answer that works for every car accident and there isn't a single position that works for each instance in which a civil liberty and security conflict.

But is it right to issue tickets and fines for not wearing seatbelts? If I choose not to wear a seatbelt, I endanger no one but myself. It's a personal choice, like deciding what's for dinner.

I wear my seatbelt all the time, people who don't are just stupid. But I don't think it's right for police to fine someone that is willing to let Darwinism come to pass. I think this law is another form of giving people a warm fuzzy feeling when in fact it does nothing. Too much of that going around.

**TheFeniX** · 07-22-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

I wear my seatbelt all the time, people who don't are just stupid. But I don't think it's right for police to fine someone that is willing to let Darwinism come to pass. I think this law is another form of giving people a warm fuzzy feeling when in fact it does nothing. Too much of that going around.

No. Seatbelt laws save lives. I don't agree that people should be forced to wear them (provided you are over the age of 18 and have no family to support), but statistics show you are much more likely to survive any kind of wreck by a large margin if you wear your seatbelt.

SmokingTarpan · 07-22-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Seatbelt laws save lives.

Seems to conflict with:

Quote:

I don't agree that people should be forced to wear them (provided you are over the age of 18 and have no family to support)

The point I'm trying to make here is that wearing a seatbelt is a personal choice, not whether or not it's life saving. Family point aside, I endanger no one except for myself if choose to not wear a seatbelt.

What other laws shall we pass in terms of saving lives? Fines for people who are on ladders without someone to hold the bottom? Give tickets to people who stand on chairs to replace a lightbulb instead of a step stool? At some point the laws that are made in the interest of "saving lives" become trivial, invasive, and downright silly. If I know something I do could endanger myself while hurting no one else , what right does anyone have to punish me for it?

edit: Forgot to add that I think we really need to take a close look at our threshold for trivial laws, I believe it's too high.

Rahn · 07-22-2005, 12:29 PM

How about this great idea that I had...

Take the 2 millions dollars that NYC is spending for over-time pay to the officers and have a MASS training of hundreds of bomb sniffing dogs. Put them at points along transportation routes and that eliminates searches and makes it relatively easy and keeps things moving.

Don't need to pull people out of line or anything...

Also, wouldn't it be nice for an insurgent to open a bag and SHOW his victims the bomb?

"Look in here pigs"

"Now you see it..."

"Now you don...."

**Trooper** · 07-22-2005, 12:46 PM

i just ment that we have to relize that this is whats going on today. the government is doing all it can to protect us and we have to relize that.

and once they pass the nation CC permit we will all be fine!

**USN_Squid** · 07-22-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

The point I'm trying to make here is that wearing a seatbelt is a personal choice, not whether or not it's life saving. Family point aside, I endanger no one except for myself if choose to not wear a seatbelt.

I don't know the numbers, but fatal car accidents far exceed people dying from falling off a ladder changing a light bulb. If you choose not to wear a seatbelt and wipe your face on your windshield the rescue and police personnel are busy cleaning up after your choice when they could be saving the life of someone that didn't make a stupid choice.

edit:
can't spell

**TheFeniX** · 07-22-2005, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

Seems to conflict with:

The point I'm trying to make here is that wearing a seatbelt is a personal choice, not whether or not it's life saving. Family point aside, I endanger no one except for myself if choose to not wear a seatbelt.

Yes it does confllict. I understand why we have a law forcing us to wear seatbelts even though I don't agree with it. It's society having to think for the stupid people.

Quote:

What other laws shall we pass in terms of saving lives? Fines for people who are on ladders without someone to hold the bottom? Give tickets to people who stand on chairs to replace a lightbulb instead of a step stool? At some point the laws that are made in the interest of "saving lives" become trivial, invasive, and downright silly. If I know something I do could endanger myself while hurting no one else , what right does anyone have to punish me for it?

Being in a vehicle is one of the most dangerous places to be. I think upwards of 54,000 people die a year in car accidents. Something like 40% of those casualities could have been avoided if the individuals had been wearing their seatbelts. I'll need to recheck the facts, but all this was presented in defensive driving. I have no figures on people falling off ladders, but I'm willing to bet big it's nowhere near the figure for car deaths.

SmokingTarpan · 07-22-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Being in a vehicle is one of the most dangerous places to be. I think upwards of 54,000 people die a year in car accidents. Something like 40% of those casualities could have been avoided if the individuals had been wearing their seatbelts. I'll need to recheck the facts, but all this was presented in defensive driving. I have no figures on people falling off ladders, but I'm willing to bet big it's nowhere near the figure for car deaths.

http://www.avert.org/usastaty.htm

From 1997-2003, the average death rate from AIDS is 18,740 per year. The average from 1981-2003 was over 22,000 per year. I'm certain that if we passed a law that would fine or jail people for engaging in pre-marital sex, this number could be cut down dramatically.

Hell, improper safety precautions with power tools and such result in 250,000 injuries and 70 deaths per year (http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/dy_stats.htm).

I understand your point; seatbelts save lives, it's good to have people wear them. But I think people are getting easily lost in the facts and ignoring my argument here. Something like wearing a seatbelt is a personal choice that (family man/woman aside) affects no one's safety other than your own.

We can look at it another way too. How does it make you safer if I wear my seatbelt? It doesn't. Unfortunately, the law is presented and accepted in such a way that it purveys the notion that it does make you safer: "Seatbelts save lives!". Well, why not "Not drinking bleach saves lives!"?

Tying this back into the main thread: it's just too easy these days for the government to get people to give up their freedom. All we have to do is say "well it's for safety's sake", and people are willing to accept all sorts of things.

Look at the NYPD law; they'll be searching backbacks at random. Alright, say they search every 10th person (to simplify). I'm that person and I get searched, revealing nothing. In the meantime, Suicide Bombers #1 and #2, in line in front and behind me, get through and blow up the train. Seems like a system that is not only invasive, but inefficient. But people are blind to that because, after all, it's for our safety. Silly.

**leejo** · 07-22-2005, 03:11 PM

I suspect "random" in this situation means every single person who fits whatever profile they're working off, and a bunch of extra people to throw off anyone watching the searchers for patterns.

Brooklyn · 07-22-2005, 03:11 PM

Boomstick where do u live ?? I live and work in New York City and I raise my children here also and we take the subway . Where do u live ?? NYPD are profiling thank God . Where do u live ?

Rahn · 07-22-2005, 03:11 PM

Supposedly they're going by numbers.

**leejo** · 07-22-2005, 03:23 PM

Yeah well I'll betcha a doller that if they're searching every 10th and the 7th happens to be a 25 year old sweaty man of Mid-Eastern or SW Asian descent who's wearing a heavy coat in July and looks very nervous the PD may miscount.

Rahn · 07-22-2005, 03:25 PM

I hope they tackle him and shoot him in the head 8 times...

07-22-2005, 12:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags Haha Squid I know where you get your morning news, ya right wing nut-job! I agree with your statement about applying "reasonable" restrictions to using public transportation. This debate about civil liberties vs. physical security reminds me of people who don't wear seat belts because they fear being stuck in a car they can't get out of. There isn't a single answer that works for every car accident and there isn't a single position that works for each instance in which a civil liberty and security conflict. So we make choices, hopefully "reasonable" choices.

07-22-2005, 12:29 PM	#21 (permalink)
Rahn Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Age: 23 Posts: 127	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags How about this great idea that I had... Take the 2 millions dollars that NYC is spending for over-time pay to the officers and have a MASS training of hundreds of bomb sniffing dogs. Put them at points along transportation routes and that eliminates searches and makes it relatively easy and keeps things moving. Don't need to pull people out of line or anything... Also, wouldn't it be nice for an insurgent to open a bag and SHOW his victims the bomb? "Look in here pigs" "Now you see it..." "Now you don...." __________________ I'm not the Killer Man... I'm the Killer Man's son... But I'll do the killing... Until the Killer Man comes...

07-22-2005, 12:46 PM	#22 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,830	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags i just ment that we have to relize that this is whats going on today. the government is doing all it can to protect us and we have to relize that. and once they pass the nation CC permit we will all be fine! __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

07-22-2005, 03:11 PM	#26 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags I suspect "random" in this situation means every single person who fits whatever profile they're working off, and a bunch of extra people to throw off anyone watching the searchers for patterns.

07-22-2005, 03:11 PM	#27 (permalink)
Brooklyn Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 157	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags Boomstick where do u live ?? I live and work in New York City and I raise my children here also and we take the subway . Where do u live ?? NYPD are profiling thank God . Where do u live ?

07-22-2005, 03:11 PM	#28 (permalink)
Rahn Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Age: 23 Posts: 127	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags Supposedly they're going by numbers. __________________ I'm not the Killer Man... I'm the Killer Man's son... But I'll do the killing... Until the Killer Man comes...

07-22-2005, 03:23 PM	#29 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags Yeah well I'll betcha a doller that if they're searching every 10th and the 7th happens to be a 25 year old sweaty man of Mid-Eastern or SW Asian descent who's wearing a heavy coat in July and looks very nervous the PD may miscount.

07-22-2005, 03:25 PM	#30 (permalink)
Rahn Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Age: 23 Posts: 127	Re: NYPD to randomly search commuter's bags I hope they tackle him and shoot him in the head 8 times... __________________ I'm not the Killer Man... I'm the Killer Man's son... But I'll do the killing... Until the Killer Man comes...

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