Pokerface

They're all listed in the opening post here, Magnum. Just because we don't get a chance to flaunt our 4th Amendment Rights (as a singular example: if we're never searched, we never get to protest a search's unreasonable nature) doesn't mean that they weren't curtailed in some measure by the Act.

Not being in a position to use the freedom shouldn't make you any less appreciative of it.

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Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
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rs_al

On a related note, how many of YOU have been attacked by terrorists? That sort of makes you wonder whether we needed anti-terror legislation to begin with, let alone a whole war on terror, if no one here has been attacked by a terrorist.

leejo

That's Bush's fault too?

leejo

That's Bush's fault too. He isn't doing enough.

TheFeniX

I'm a white middle-class male living in Texas: I'm rarely if ever discriminated against.

My hispanic friend Randy, who's been over in Iraq and just got back in America from Germany was jogging down the road in sweat pants and shirt with a backpack carrying his MP3 players and bottled water. He was "pulled over" and the cops asked for ID. After showing the cop his military ID, he still wanted to search his backpack with the lame excuse: "Well, in this day and age I've got to search anyone outside a school with a backpack." So, in the middle of summer, cops in a predominately hispanic neighborrhood are worried about an army combat medic blowing up an empty school. I'd rather classify that as "racist cop who needs to be unemployed" but that's why I'm not in politics.

This "OMG 9/11 teh fear, fear everyone" is just some pathetic excuse for law-enforcement and the government to get away with what they want. They pulled the same crap during the Cold War, and they'll keep doing it unless people stop them.

I'll bold this because it's important: Your right are always something worth fighting for. It is not worth fighting someone else where, by doing so, your government is willing to sacrifice what the country was based off.

I mean, you're over 1000x more likely to be killed for your shoes or wallet than killed because you're an "America Infadel!"

I'm sure most men aksed the same thing when debating whether to give women the right to vote.

Restricting freedoms and denying people access to their rights in any capacity is a bad thing. Further (and I've said this before), if we have to results to draconian laws to fight the statistical anomaly of dying in a terrorist attack: then Al-Quadia (or whoever the government wants us to fear today) has already won.

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Rahn

I would rather have my government let me have my freedoms rather than take them away because of a few people who might hurt me.

I'm sure don't need to repeat the old Benjamin Franklin quote about freedom and security...

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I'm the Killer Man's son...
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Until the Killer Man comes...

leejo

Terrorism doesn't just attack by killing. Its primary function is to attack "the legs", the infrastructure. Remember how the stock market dropped after 9/11? Did you notice that it didn't budge much after 7/7? That's because the threat is already priced into the market. This means that people are less willing to invest because of the threat of terror. This means that fewer people get jobs. So I may not be killed by a terror attack to have my life changed by being laid off and broke.

This did in fact happen to me after 9/11. It happened to millions of people who weren't anywhere near NYC or DC.

And what's draconian? Have you not noticed the cases that run up the appellate courts to the Supreme Court for review? The Patriot Act does not toss out constitutional protections, nor can it. This isn't the first law to have controversial sections. Some of these sections will be struck down in time and some will be "interpreted" to become less of a threat to liberty. In the meantime, it's sufficiently aggressive to give a good three to ten years' window during which time the law enforcement and intelligence services can catch up with the new demands being placed on them.

leejo

We seem to see eye to eye generally Rahn, but here's where I differ from you. In my world view, I give the government authority, the government does not give me freedom. My fellow voters and I can put people in or toss them out.

So I don't see the Patriot Act as government taking my rights away from me. I see it as the government implementing the increased security measures that I and my fellow voters demanded after 9/11. The purpose of law in a democracy, according to that old Frenchman De Toqueville, is to protect the weak from the strong. THAT is where the Patriot Act is a threat - not governement stripping away "our" rights but (mostly white) voters taking rights away from the muslim minority. That's why we have the constitution and judicial review has evolved as that branches means of ensuring that the elected branches do not overstep their authority.

But Bush and congress did the right thing passing this law because it's what their constituents expected them to do. So if'n y'all aren't likin' the law, blame me and my friends who vote, don't blame Bush.

Magnum50

all I got to add is you give good arguments... but NO ONE has posted THEY have been effected by all these "NAZI FEAR LAWS".

I rest my case.

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Pokerface

Nor have you posted that you've been terrorized recently.

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Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
<anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
<LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash
Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

SmokingTarpan

I've not directly lost any freedoms. However, there is the possibility that I might, thanks to the new legislation. I'm not okay with that.

Let's work off of an example. Say the government passes a law that says they're allowed to physically torture a person during questioning if they think they've been involved in a crime. Now, you're an upstanding Johnny Citizen, so this doesn't bother you in the least because you never do anything wrong. Then one day the police come to talk to you because they think you've committed a crime. Of course you haven't, but they proceed to beat the living crap out of you until they're satisfied that your cry of innocence was indeed truthful.

Yes, it's an extreme example, mostly off the wall compared to the above issues. But I find that it takes extreme examples to point things out that might otherwise be hidden amongst "trivial" concerns.

The whole "Hasn't happened to me" sentiment is what ends up screwing us over in the end. I'm a safe driver and have never been in an accident, so I don't need auto insurance. I eat healthy and exercise daily, so I don't need health insurance. I never break a law, so I don't need to worry about legislation that says I can be held without trial if the police think I've committed a crime.

Waiting to deal with something until it affects you is like waiting until the last moment to move out of the way of a speeding bus... and then tripping over your shoelace.

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rs_al

This kind of thinking, can get you in a lot of trouble. Your mention of Nazis brings this quote to mind:

I'm not making a connection between Bush and Hitler, before you jump to that conclusion. This quote is the extreme- I'm just saying is that these things always start small.

leejo

I don't think we can have a serious discussion about a law if we have to account for fantasyland exaggerations. If your imaginary government gets to torture people, then my imaginary government will make me King of The Universe and I will fix the problem, so relax.

SmokingTarpan

Such that I learned in my multitude of philosophy classes. Work on a problem by putting it in other contexts. The problem here: is a law bad if it hasn't affected me yet?

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leejo

If government tortures people under suspicion, then we revolt and start shooting cops on sight. How's that?

I took philosophy too. It was part of my double major. It's jacking off though in situations like this one.