leejo

I can't imagine anyone who is responsible for providing for their family or who has been watching their balance in their IRAs or 401(k)s for the last 4 years saying that. It seems like a very young, arrogant, statement. Apologies if you're 40 and I'm totally misreading this.

Pokerface

I can't imagine anyone with a family to care for not going out and getting that simple job despite their IRAs and 401k taking a fall.

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leejo

Oh I think you sorta leaned into that one. I personally know several TG members who, like myself, did exactly that for a while there. Besides, your point isn't really relevant to anything other than sounding catty: the question at hand is the impact of 9/11 on the economy and careers, not whether or not anyone has the stones to suck it up and do what they have to do.

I'd be curious to see a poll of TG members by their age who do and do not think 9/11 had a serious and lasting effect on the economy. I believe that the older the person the more respect they have for what 9/11 did.

Gosh 26 year-olds were still in college then, weren't they? Lots of people under 30 were just getting into a career and had nice cheap jobs, and so may have stayed fairly safe. But I tell you what, I don't know many people from 30 to 50 in Austin who don't know 10, 20, 30 people who's lives, savings, incomes, careers changed after 9/11.

leejo

These positions really baffle me. 9/11 wasn't a big deal now, is that basically what y'all are claiming? If so, what does that say about your thoughts on 7/7? It's not as if everyone was feeling groovy and decided hey let's have a Patriot Act and spend hundreds of billions of dollars on wars. And if 9/11 isn't enough for you to realize it's on, what on earth is a sufficient message?

mightyfee

You're ignoring how much energy this administration put into frightening people before the election. Why don't we see those multicolored "terrorist" warnings anymore? I would venture to guess it's because they were totally bogus in the first place and that the Bush Family used them, along with their almost total takeover of the mainstream corporate media, to frighten people into voting for their very own, home grown puppet dictator.

And it worked. Fear checkmates logic almost every time, unfortunately.

There is also the looooong discussion brewing here about the legitimacy of the last two presidential elections, but that's probably fuel for a whole 'nother thread . . .

BTW, before you go hootin' and hollerin' about my "conspiracy theory" babblings with regard to the corporate media ownership, go look up who holds the reins of ABC, CNN, FOX, etc., and THEN tell me I'm being paranoid. It'll be a cold day in Florida before MSNBC reports anything substantive about Monsanto or Halliburton or any of the other corporate monsters . . .

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mightyfee

Now perhaps you can explain to us exactly what the unprovoked invasion of Iraq had to do with the 9/11 tragedy . . .

__________________
But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore.
We're already overcrowded from your dirty little war.

mightyfee

Since I fit all three of your criteria, I'll take a stab at it.

1. How about a foreign policy that doesn't make a habit of overthrowing democratically-elected governments? If we try treating other countries like partners instead of lackies, it might be a nice gesture. Who knows? They might even start liking us again.

2. How about we stop assuming that every culture on the freakin' planet has to be just like ours or it's no good?

3. How about pouring capital into developing countries and showing them how to get themselves on their feet instead of exploiting them so we can have expensive sneakers?

4. How about we have an honest press conference where citizens get to ask Dubya some real quesions for a change and can actually expect him to answer them without his customary evasion?

5. Another nice gesture would be to give the Iraqis some credit for being able to reassemble their own country without our help. Bring our troops home. Now. Disassemble the fourteen military bases and tell the corporate vultures to take a hike. A culture that invented Math and was likely the birthplace of homo sapiens can probably figure out a way to spend their billions of dollars in oil revenues properly if only Halliburton and The Carlyle Group will let them.

That's for starters. I start to get illogical when I'm pissed, and I'm mildly annoyed right now, so I'better stop for now.

__________________
But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore.
We're already overcrowded from your dirty little war.

Dirt013

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. media coverage of last year's election was three times more likely to be negative toward President Bush than Democratic challenger John Kerry, according to a study released Monday. The annual report by a press watchdog that is affiliated with Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism said that 36 percent of stories about Bush were negative compared to 12 percent about Kerry, a Massachusetts senator.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...sh_1110813118/

it's obvious that the Bush family's strangle hold on the media is complete!


Dirt013

Karkianman101

Any studies that compare quality and quantity? Sure, if you include all the small websites and newspapers, most of them will be anti bush. This is because he is bad. But the major newspapers, news shows, and websites will get more viewers, and tend to be more pro bush. So the net effect would be that more people are exposed to pro bush.

At least, thats my little theory. Im not about to go do tons of research for an argument on a forum.

warcriminal2

What a thread! Can't say I agree with its original author on much but it was a good read. I think this thread is a good reflection of public opinion of our commander and chief or "commander and thief" if you are Mightyfee

Having lived most of my life in the Bay Area (a very liberal place) I am very familiar with some of the arguments Mightyfee and others in the "I hate Bush camp". Even though I am hardly swayed by them, their message is important. I fear the day when all share the same opinion on important issues such as politics, religion, war and all the rest. The 2 party system (sorry independents) must always remain intact for this or any democracy to survive. If this is lost and "Group think" sets in head for the hills because the end is probably near.

I have supported this President at the polls twice now and would do it again but fortunately for the left, Republicans pushed for and got the Twenty-second Amendment to the Constitution after Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a Democrat and perhaps one of our finest Presidents was elected to his fourth term in the oval office.

Even though we might not agree on much when it comes to politics, I thought I'd throw 2 things out there that we can probably all agree on.

The first is this, no matter what direction we might feel the country is moving in under this President and no matter how well we argue our point of view, it will be the historians who will determine if Bush did the right thing taking us to war after 9/11. There is no possible way for any of us to predict what the outcome might have been under the status quo or by taken decisive action against those who wish destroy us.

The second item that all Americans can probably agree on is that we are damn lucky we weren't born in Canada.......I'm totally kidding; If I couldn’t live here I would want to live up there with you guys Ok serious now, the second thing all of us can agree on is that regardless of our political orientation, we all love our country very much and this is why we are so passionate in our political debates.

God bless the United States of America and all who stand by her! (Canada too )

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Karkianman101

I actually dont love this country. I've been brought up rather detatched from propaganda and nationalism. I realise that had I been born in just about any other western country (canada, england, netherlands, etc) that I wouldnt have turned out that much different.

As such, I have seriously considered moving to Canada when I settle down. Somewhere where a US town is reachable by car within a few hours, so I may still visit a doctor immediately if need be.

warcriminal2

That's ok dude, and I hope you find what you are looking for in Canada. I've been there twice and was impressed with the quality of life it's citizens enjoy both times.

Can you answer just one thing for me? Would you consider yourself a "well traveled" individual? How many times have you been outside the US? (not including Mexico or Canada) I'm not trying to knock you or anything, just curious.

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Karkianman101

When I was I think 2 weeks I went to new zealand. After that I mainly stayed in the US, but went to many different parts (from Texas to Utah to Boston to Colorado to Florida to California and in between). Last summer I spent 3-4 weeks on a tour through Italy and Greece, spending 9 days in Rome, and I think 5 in Athens.

Not the widest experiance, I know. This winter break I will visit my sister, who is getting her masters in Barcelona and staying there for a couple years at least. She has also been around more than me. She went to New Zealand at age 8, she spent a long time in Rome and Cairo, she spent a while in Spain. She has also been to more of the US than I. Anyway, she and I share extremely similar views on this issue, except that she wants to move out of North America entirely, while I prefer to stay on this continent.

warcriminal2

Cool! Consider yourself lucky because some people never get the opportunity to leave their home state and you my friend have literally been on the other side of the globe...twice. The reason I asked the question was until I started traveling abroad, I was fairly blasé about living in the US. I could rattle off a list of my travels that would rival Bill Clinton....okay I'm overstating.....okay I’m seriously overstating but I'm not trying to brag here. The point I wanted to make was this; every time I stepped back onto US soil, JFK, SFO, KMIA, LAX, ANC, wherever, I was so friggin happy I couldn't believe it. Sometimes people don't know how good they have it here till they go experience what the rest of the world has to offer....Maybe this is true no matter where u come from but I really appreciate living in the USA that's for damn sure.

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Karkianman101

I actually loved Italy, and could easily envision myself living there. Everyone is nice, the food is great, and there are very few car accidents of any sort, even though the taxi drivers go 100+ through intersections and between cars.

One thing that really struck me was the consumer/employee relationship. Here in the US, you walk into a restaurant, and its all smiles, and apologetic behaviour, and ingratiating behaviour from the workers. Its this facade to make the customer feel better. In Italy, you walk into a restaurant or a bar, and you get treated as more of an equal. You are just another customer, without the bull****ting and the plastered smile. If you act rude, you might get kicked out.

Also there jobs are taken more seriously, but less. A bus driver can fully raise and support a family on his or her pay alone, and that person doesnt use bus driving as just a money source. They get damn good at it. They take pride in their work. But also, they dont take it too seriously. They dont seem as prone to just obsess about their work, and they dont sacrifice family time or happiness to bring home just another paycheck.

Or at least, thats what I got from being there But you could seriously spend all day just watching an intersection of a street. The way they drive is like one massive organism 0_o