mightyfee

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions even if no criminal activity is suspected.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

You have been reading excerpts from "Freedoms Lost Under George W. Bush", by Chuck Baldwin. For more information, please visit Chuck's website at chuckbaldwinlive.com.

Are you tired of shouting? Let's start whispering!! Copy this message and leave copies in public places. Mail or Fax copies to your 'elected' representatives. Tell them we're not gonna take it anymore. Mail or Fax copies to your local media. Tell them we'll do their job if they won't. Join the Velvet Revolution at VelvetRevolution.US. This message has been brought to you by The Whispering Campaign. Visit us at psstpsstpsst.blogspot.com.

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leejo

Isn't this all stuff from the Patriot Act? The one that passed 98-1-1 in the Senate?

Damn that Bush and the Republicans. Here are some other people who voted for it.

Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corzine (D-NJ), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Yea
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Yea

Hmmm. That's pretty much all of them. I guess you can count on Landrieu, who boldly didn't vote, and Feingold, who voted nay, to represent the silent moderate majority and protect your civil liberties from Bush.

Trooper

was that saracsm becuase if it was HAHAH!

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Mishkan

no, it wasn't sarcasm at all

And what part of Austin you in Leejo?

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Boomstick

This doesn't really suprise me because my senator, Chuck Schumer has always been a crappy senator

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Spyder

You guys do know that they renewed the patriot act Indeffinantly, right?

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Karkianman101

Were you also aware that they passed a different bill? They passed a much milder and MUCH less freedom killing version. Then it was massively revised. Most of the senators assumed that the revision was minor, and passed it again without reading it. Thats the version that we have now.

So actually, in a way, they didnt pass this bill. Or at least, they werent informed enough to pass it wisely.

Mishkan

That had to be one of the worst excuses I've ever heard.

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Karkianman101

What? They didnt read the Patriot Act that is currently in use. They read a much less controversial and a much less anti-constitutional and anti-american version of it.

And how is it an excuse?

CingularDuality

They passed it, didn't they?

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luna

So wait a minute. You're telling me that the people who voted for it never took the needed time to read the bill, and yet just went ahead and voted for it? How on earth is that Bush's responsibility? I mean, cmon now. If a Senator cannot be bothered to actually READ the bill he's signing, what kind of Senator is that? And at what point did the burden of responsibility for those decisions switch from the people who actually voted to the President?

It is the responsibility of our Senators to be informed and educated on what they are voting for. Let's put the burden of responsibility where it belongs.

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ImAWuss

If I was to start my own radical religion, how would you know when to start paying attention? Without the patriot act, probably AFTER my radical actions.

If the government asks you to keep a secret, to ensure that a terror investigation is successful, you should have no objection.

I'm assuming that these crimes are not your every day murder, rape, drug, etc... crimes. These crimes are crimes against the public. Terror crimes. If you can learn more information by listening to these conversations that might stop future attacks, then great. If you’re innocent, than why is there a problem with ANYONE listening to your conversation.

Again, for the protection of the American Public. They cant just come right in, take my papers, and leave. They've got to have good reason. Again, if there's nothing to hid, then why is this a problem?

Now this, I don’t agree with UNLESS the person has been deemed an immediate threat to National Security, or the American Public.

I haven’t shouted. I will not. I don’t agree with your views, and this propaganda. I know that none of the listed rights above of mine will ever be violated. How? Because I wont ever violate another person, or persons rights. If you have nothing to hide, and you do nothing wrong, than the powers given by the patriot act should not bother you.

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Pokerface

Everything you said Wuss forgoes a couple of important facts.

• Most Patriot Act provisions do not conduct themselves openly. Thus, when you state "They cant just come right in, take my papers, and leave. They've got to have good reason.", you are missing a key point; The "good reason" need only be proven to single judge in chambers and is not a matter of public record. The net effect of this is that officers CAN come in, take papers, and leave, as their "good reason" is sealed up behind the Patriot Act.
• "Again, if there's nothing to hid, then why is this a problem?" This line of reasoning presupposes that anything worth hiding is illegal, which it may not be. There may be details about your past or present life that you simply don't want people prying into -- perfectly legal things that you'd simply rather not share with the world.
• Similarly, "If you’re innocent, than why is there a problem with ANYONE listening to your conversation."... Because you don't have to; you have a RIGHT to an attorney. Even innocent people get attorneys to make sure that they don't end up confessing for a crime they didn't commit by saying the wrong thing in the wrong context.
• "If I was to start my own radical religion, how would you know when to start paying attention? Without the patriot act, probably AFTER my radical actions." We'd regularly paid attention to radical people and groups before the Patriot Act. There's no reason to expect that some won't slip through the cracks now like they did pre-PA.
• You do a whole lot of "to protect the American Public" rhetoric, and that's WAY too broad a notion to try to saddle with an anti-terrorism act. Yes, terrorism bad, I get that, but it's equally bad (if not moreso) to take the values that we have as a nation and stomp all over them in the name of "protection".

While we're at this, can someone explain to me how it is that the philosophical side of government that's usually interested in tearing down "big government" and in "ending federal bloat" and the like is possibly for this anti-terrorism act?

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Magnum50

I'm curous... and be honest here... instead of just putting something you read here against our current president and the way things are today....

Can ANY American, that visits or post in this forum... reply if they have had any violations of there rights because of these "freedoms" that were removed... and then, your story, if willing to share...

(and I'm not talking about some local police officer stopping you or pulling you over for some ticket you don't think you deserve... I'm talking one of the many freedoms the main topic poster says has been removed.)

I know I haven't been effected, or anyone I know, one bit... and I do know that our government, which so many posters here think so little of, have done alot with those new investigative tools to stop and break up terrorist and criminal plans here. So, I wonder... what freedoms have YOU lost?

(just food for thought.)

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ImAWuss

Well said. +Rep.

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