What's the bid deal with?

saik0 · 07-25-2005, 01:08 PM

What's the big deal with removing religious symbolism from government? The obvious example being the controversy with removing the 10 Commandements from courts of law. It's an old issue but as a Theology student at a conservative Bible college I still simply dont understand while this ruffles so many people's feathers.

Spyder · 07-25-2005, 01:26 PM

From the perspective of somebody that's very *not* religious, I actually have to agree with you. I don't see what the big deal is either.

**Rincewind** · 07-25-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saik0

I still simply dont understand while this ruffles so many people's feathers.

On which side of the argument?

**CingularDuality** · 07-25-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saik0

What's the big deal with removing religious symbolism from government? The obvious example being the controversy with removing the 10 Commandements from courts of law. It's an old issue but as a Theology student at a conservative Bible college I still simply dont understand while this ruffles so many people's feathers.

Well, if you're christian, how would you feel if you were being tried in a court that had excerpts of the Koran on the wall? Yes, our country was founded by christians, and yes, our country was founded on judeo-christian values, but one of the most important reasons our country was founded was to escape state sponsored religion.

SmokingTarpan · 07-25-2005, 01:43 PM

For me, it stems from the following two things:

1. Separation of Church and State
2. I don't like my tax dollars being used to force-feed religion of any kind to the public.

I don't even like the "In God We Trust" moniker on our money. If your money was being used to make a government building, would you like it if they decided to put up the Laws of Satan? I wouldn't, just like I don't want the Ten Commandments or other religious documents up.

Mishkan · 07-25-2005, 03:08 PM

prayer in public schools is way worse in my opinion

saik0 · 07-25-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Well, if you're christian, how would you feel if you were being tried in a court that had excerpts of the Koran on the wall? Yes, our country was founded by christians, and yes, our country was founded on judeo-christian values, but one of the most important reasons our country was founded was to escape state sponsored religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

For me, it stems from the following two things:

1. Separation of Church and State
2. I don't like my tax dollars being used to force-feed religion of any kind to the public.

I don't even like the "In God We Trust" moniker on our money. If your money was being used to make a government building, would you like it if they decided to put up the Laws of Satan? I wouldn't, just like I don't want the Ten Commandments or other religious documents up.

As I stated, I dont have any 'feelings' either way. Having the Ten Commandments up does not force people to have a Judeo-Christian worldview. They still have total religious freedom. Taking them down does not remove any of that religious freedom from Christians. If they removed "In God we Trust' from currence that does'nt mean I no longer have the right to do so. I dont think anything is being force-fed though Tarpan. As far as it's reaches in govt. is concerned it's a symbol, nothing more and nothing less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

On which side of the argument?

Both is what I've been getting at. Theres a couple of completely resonable arguements on both sides, but at the end of the day it just looks like the conflict of agenda between the far left and the far right......neither of which seem to make a lot of sense when it comes to religion or even reflect the opion of the majority. It's not that I'm trying to make a stand or start a discussion on whether this is good or bad. What I'm looking for is some sort of explanation to why people get flustered over this besides "they're %&*@ing nuts man.' Because that's all I got.

**Trooper** · 07-25-2005, 03:16 PM

as long as there are tests there is going to be prayer in church.

imma religous person and i like seeing the monikers and such alike, but i dont like it when these things are being tried and people are outside makeing a fool of themselves yelling and crying loudly.

what bible college you go to saik0?

people where given free will and we use it everyday....thats what makes america great we all have the right to choose, i can understand why people feel pushed cause alot of religious people are pushy, we just need to find a happy medium.

does saying the pledge of alligance both ne of you?

SmokingTarpan · 07-25-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saik0

I dont think anything is being force-fed though Tarpan. As far as it's reaches in govt. is concerned it's a symbol, nothing more and nothing less.

Perhaps using the term "force-fed" was the wrong angle. I'll try a different approach.

The main issue that I have with religious symbols or documents being used in publicly funded buildings is that they are using my tax dollars to support a private thing that I do not. I want people to be free to follow whatever religion they wish, and I want people to have the ability to be informed about said religions. But they should be spending their privately raised funds to do so, not relying on my publicly donated money.

Government buildings are there for the good of all, while something like the Ten Commandments is there for the good of Christianity (despite extremists saying that what is good for Christianity is good for all). I'm more than willing to pay for the good of all, but not for the good of a select group.

The government might think it's only a symbol, but to me, it's my $.01 saying that I support Religion X when in fact I do not.

saik0 · 07-25-2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

as long as there are tests there is going to be prayer in church.

imma religous person and i like seeing the monikers and such alike, but i dont like it when these things are being tried and people are outside makeing a fool of themselves yelling and crying loudly.

what bible college you go to saik0?

people where given free will and we use it everyday....thats what makes america great we all have the right to choose, i can understand why people feel pushed cause alot of religious people are pushy, we just need to find a happy medium.

does saying the pledge of alligance both ne of you?

Heh, I think you meant as long as there are tests there will be prayer in schools (not churches). I goto Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. And yes I too can understand how people can push religion on others. I've seen lots of pushy atheists too though.

We're staying far from the thread's intent. Tarpan, you like like you have chosen a side on the issue so let me phrase it differently, why is this an issue in the first place? Do you feel people's rights are being violated? Is the influence of the symbol of a worldview whether in a judical building or printed on the back of all our currency really so great that you insist that it be removed? Just remember the name of the tread: Whats the big deal?

**leejo** · 07-25-2005, 04:45 PM

I think saiko hit the nail on the head. The only people who get really fired up about this are far right and left wing bores.

The only problem I have with the movement to strip religion out of government is that the whole notion of separation of church and state is a sort of a figment, and when people say "religion" they actually mean Christianity. The constitution doesn't say that church and religion shall be separate, it says that congress shall neither make a law to establish a religion (a la the COE) or nor prohibit the free practice of a religion.

If it's ok for the DA in California to display a painting of America being flushed in a toilet, or whatever, then why shouldn't it be ok for a judge in Alabama to display a statue of the ten commandments in his courthouse? It's the same amendment.

Buck Fush · 07-25-2005, 05:10 PM

My problem is that religion seems to be taking over our lives. Religious people, especially Christians like to shove their views down other people's throats (Quite literally, sometimes). To me, God is Santa Claus for adults. It disgusts me enough to hear the leader of my country talk about this as if it's reality. When children hear this, or see it in government facilities, it reinforces the belief that this is real and not some crutch made up because man can't deal with the fact that he's on the same playing field as every other animal on the face of this Earth. You're born. You'll live X years. Then you die and become fertilizer for something else’s life. That's the reality. You have control over your life, no one else does. I don't want anyone telling our youth differently.

The litmus test in these situations is to replace the word "God" or "Jesus" with "Satan". If, as a Christian, you find it offensive, then realize others might take offense to the original. (Before this rumor gets started, I remind you that one must believe in Satan to be a Satan worshiper.) i.e. It's as acceptable to put a copy of the “Ten Commandments” in a government building as it is to display a copy of “The Sermons of Lucifer”. It's as offensive to some to put "In God we trust." on our currency as it would be to others to put "To Satan We Bow."

"If you don't like the content, don't read it/change the channel" is an argument that has been rejected by Christians many times when it comes to books or TV shows that they find offensive, so then why should I have to ignore the many references I see from my government everyday that recognizes Christianity. Religion is a very dangerous tool and IMHO should be outlawed.

Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion.

saik0 · 07-25-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

My problem is that religion seems to be taking over our lives. Religious people, especially Christians like to shove their views down other people's throats (Quite literally, sometimes). To me, God is Santa Claus for adults. It disgusts me enough to hear the leader of my country talk about this as if it's reality. When children hear this, or see it in government facilities, it reinforces the belief that this is real and not some crutch made up because man can't deal with the fact that he's on the same playing field as every other animal on the face of this Earth. You're born. You'll live X years. Then you die and become fertilizer for something else’s life. That's the reality. You have control over your life, no one else does. I don't want anyone telling our youth differently.

The litmus test in these situations is to replace the word "God" or "Jesus" with "Satan". If, as a Christian, you find it offensive, then realize others might take offense to the original. (Before this rumor gets started, I remind you that one must believe in Satan to be a Satan worshiper.) i.e. It's as acceptable to put a copy of the “Ten Commandments” in a government building as it is to display a copy of “The Sermons of Lucifer”. It's as offensive to some to put "In God we trust." on our currency as it would be to others to put "To Satan We Bow."

"If you don't like the content, don't read it/change the channel" is an argument that has been rejected by Christians many times when it comes to books or TV shows that they find offensive, so then why should I have to ignore the many references I see from my government everyday that recognizes Christianity. Religion is a very dangerous tool and IMHO should be outlawed.

Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saik0

It's not that I'm trying to make a stand or start a discussion on whether this is good or bad. What I'm looking for is some sort of explanation to why people get flustered over this besides "they're %&*@ing nuts man.' Because that's all I got.

I guess there is no other explanation. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Uchiha Obito · 07-25-2005, 05:48 PM

A statue in the lobby and a painting in your office are kind of like apples and oranges don't you think Leejo? Once the DA leaves office, the painting is easily removed, statues tend to be slightly more permanent and cost a bit more (cost only being important depending on who paid for it) The ten commandments statue is in the front of the courthouse, and while the religion of the judges should have no bearing on a trial some people fear it might. I myself could care less about that issue. What I do care about is the fact that my tax dollars go to support religious organizations that I whole-heartedly oppose, such as the large number of tax dollars that go to support abstinence only sex education. The government supports these kind of groups that actually spread lies and ignorance when it comes to having safe sex in order to scare the kids into not having underage sex. These groups tell the kids things like, condoms only work 80% of the time, and the government supports them. If a child in one of these programs asks a teacher how to properly use a condom the teachers are told to feign ignorance. And my favorite figure for at least one group in particular (Silver Ring Thing) is that over 70% of teens involved in the program still have underage, out of wedlock sex and that's just the teens that admitted to it. Thank goodness our country is starting to churn out these woefully ignorant STD timebombs, and I get to help foot the bill.

**Trooper** · 07-25-2005, 05:55 PM

no kidding saiko i got to indiana weslyn University.....just a note

07-25-2005, 01:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
saik0 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hollywood, FL Age: 23 Posts: 123	What's the bid deal with? What's the big deal with removing religious symbolism from government? The obvious example being the controversy with removing the 10 Commandements from courts of law. It's an old issue but as a Theology student at a conservative Bible college I still simply dont understand while this ruffles so many people's feathers.

07-25-2005, 01:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Spyder Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: MN (Middle of Nowhere, MN) Age: 25 Posts: 1,049	Re: What's the bid deal with? From the perspective of somebody that's very not religious, I actually have to agree with you. I don't see what the big deal is either. __________________ a.k.a. NinjaPirateAssassin Celibacy is not Hereditary. Everybody should believe in something - I believe I'll have another drink. Happiness is like wetting your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth. Flying is easy, Just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

07-25-2005, 01:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
SmokingTarpan Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,471	Re: What's the bid deal with? For me, it stems from the following two things: 1. Separation of Church and State 2. I don't like my tax dollars being used to force-feed religion of any kind to the public. I don't even like the "In God We Trust" moniker on our money. If your money was being used to make a government building, would you like it if they decided to put up the Laws of Satan? I wouldn't, just like I don't want the Ten Commandments or other religious documents up. __________________ [squadl] "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

07-25-2005, 03:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,830	Re: What's the bid deal with? as long as there are tests there is going to be prayer in church. imma religous person and i like seeing the monikers and such alike, but i dont like it when these things are being tried and people are outside makeing a fool of themselves yelling and crying loudly. what bible college you go to saik0? people where given free will and we use it everyday....thats what makes america great we all have the right to choose, i can understand why people feel pushed cause alot of religious people are pushy, we just need to find a happy medium. does saying the pledge of alligance both ne of you? __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

07-25-2005, 04:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: What's the bid deal with? I think saiko hit the nail on the head. The only people who get really fired up about this are far right and left wing bores. The only problem I have with the movement to strip religion out of government is that the whole notion of separation of church and state is a sort of a figment, and when people say "religion" they actually mean Christianity. The constitution doesn't say that church and religion shall be separate, it says that congress shall neither make a law to establish a religion (a la the COE) or nor prohibit the free practice of a religion. If it's ok for the DA in California to display a painting of America being flushed in a toilet, or whatever, then why shouldn't it be ok for a judge in Alabama to display a statue of the ten commandments in his courthouse? It's the same amendment.

07-25-2005, 05:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 608	Re: What's the bid deal with? My problem is that religion seems to be taking over our lives. Religious people, especially Christians like to shove their views down other people's throats (Quite literally, sometimes). To me, God is Santa Claus for adults. It disgusts me enough to hear the leader of my country talk about this as if it's reality. When children hear this, or see it in government facilities, it reinforces the belief that this is real and not some crutch made up because man can't deal with the fact that he's on the same playing field as every other animal on the face of this Earth. You're born. You'll live X years. Then you die and become fertilizer for something else’s life. That's the reality. You have control over your life, no one else does. I don't want anyone telling our youth differently. The litmus test in these situations is to replace the word "God" or "Jesus" with "Satan". If, as a Christian, you find it offensive, then realize others might take offense to the original. (Before this rumor gets started, I remind you that one must believe in Satan to be a Satan worshiper.) i.e. It's as acceptable to put a copy of the “Ten Commandments” in a government building as it is to display a copy of “The Sermons of Lucifer”. It's as offensive to some to put "In God we trust." on our currency as it would be to others to put "To Satan We Bow." "If you don't like the content, don't read it/change the channel" is an argument that has been rejected by Christians many times when it comes to books or TV shows that they find offensive, so then why should I have to ignore the many references I see from my government everyday that recognizes Christianity. Religion is a very dangerous tool and IMHO should be outlawed. Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion.

07-25-2005, 05:48 PM	#14 (permalink)
Uchiha Obito Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Age: 25 Posts: 345	Re: What's the bid deal with? A statue in the lobby and a painting in your office are kind of like apples and oranges don't you think Leejo? Once the DA leaves office, the painting is easily removed, statues tend to be slightly more permanent and cost a bit more (cost only being important depending on who paid for it) The ten commandments statue is in the front of the courthouse, and while the religion of the judges should have no bearing on a trial some people fear it might. I myself could care less about that issue. What I do care about is the fact that my tax dollars go to support religious organizations that I whole-heartedly oppose, such as the large number of tax dollars that go to support abstinence only sex education. The government supports these kind of groups that actually spread lies and ignorance when it comes to having safe sex in order to scare the kids into not having underage sex. These groups tell the kids things like, condoms only work 80% of the time, and the government supports them. If a child in one of these programs asks a teacher how to properly use a condom the teachers are told to feign ignorance. And my favorite figure for at least one group in particular (Silver Ring Thing) is that over 70% of teens involved in the program still have underage, out of wedlock sex and that's just the teens that admitted to it. Thank goodness our country is starting to churn out these woefully ignorant STD timebombs, and I get to help foot the bill. __________________

07-25-2005, 05:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,830	Re: What's the bid deal with? no kidding saiko i got to indiana weslyn University.....just a note __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

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