TheFeniX

These people still represent the fundamentalist aspect of the religion. And they are those that spear-head the movements. Now here's where you'll get a glimps into my irrational line of thinking.

Let's take a few examples off the top of my head:
I can forgive Democrats for lying philanderers like Clinton.
I can forgive Republicans for poorly spoken evangicals like Bush.

What I can't forgive (and I mean that more in a "I can't associate with it" kind of way) with a religion that lets the almost-insane minority speak for the rest of it's community and spread their teachings of hate, bigotry, and extortion. I hold that more against God than I would a person. The Christian religion isn't the only one I feel this way about. So, your Muslim part would be a yes.

I should have done a better job defining my view on the issues I have with Christianity. I don't have any issues with your moderate "just trying to make it through life as a decent person" kind of Christian. But then again, you have to realize: they don't exactly stick with the tenants of their religion too well. So, are they really "true" Christians?

The fundamentalist movement is migrating Christianity back towards a literal interpretation of the bible (or whatever parts best suit their agenda). Hence, why I criticize them so much. Chritianity is supposed to be about "peace and love" right? So why is it those who are migrating towards the literal approach are those that are the most caustic towards other people?

I can't respect that line of reasoning. When put into perspective, it's the exact same ideals that the Muslim community thrives on. The moderates get screwed, while the fundamentalists lash out mindlessly (and extremely violently) at anything that questions their faith.

Many people did many good things for disaster victims. So automatically it was because they were Christian? Maybe they did it because they were basically good people.

I can give fundamentalists a lot of "good credit" for deeds done. I can also give them a whole lot of "bad credit" for misdeeds. Whether used as an excuse or honest belief would be for them to decide.

I will grant that, but people are more than capable of doing good deeds on their own without "divine guidance."

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leejo

Well you just put a lot of words into my mouth. Before I do the same, are you referring to religion as "superstition and fear?"

With regard to the ideology of the public school systems in this country, yes it does bother me. That and the fact that it has failed miserably in its charge to educate students to be competent. While I don't have the time or interest to debate this with you, I have many friends who are parents of school aged children and get to listen to a litany of horror stories about ignorant, agenda-driving nitwit teachers and the gum-smacking dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers administrators who support them. There is a political leaning in that crowd, and that's a fact. Goggle up on it and prove me wrong.

If you're not a parent yet, you may find that when you become one all of this stops being an abstract interesting discussion and becomes something you care about daily.

leejo

OK so what do you want? Every time Fallwell opens his yap a bush must burn and God himself my issue a correction to you, TheFenix, so you feel there's been an adequate
disclaimer? Can't we just ignore Fallwell the way one would ignore a street-corner proselytizer: walk on?

What's important isn't what these people say it's what they DO and what others do in response to their teachings. The difference between the imams and Fallwell is that the death to infidel speech gets translated into dead infidels (and a whole boatload of muslims thrown into the mix but who's counting?). I dunno about Jerry Fallwell's scratch but we sure aren't setting policy based on his latest blurb.

And, again, you blame God but don't believe in Him. Pure t tangled up in blue dude.

Steeler

No, but the practical application of religion in daily life can be either positive or negative. Positive becomes strength, hope and compassion. Negative is superstition and fear.

There have always been and always will be incompetent, lazy teachers. Just as there will always be incompetent carpenters, stock traders, lawyers, janitors, and corporate VPs. Political leanings do not necessarily cause this. I'm just as frustrated as you are when I see a bad teacher who doesn't know or care a darn thing about actually teaching children. People with wishy-washy well-meaning theories on childhood development and touchy-feely togetherness excercises and "transactional" anaylsis techniques are a pain in the rear, too. But I do not lump the entire national establishment together under a political banner I don't like.

5 members of my family and many of my friends are public school teachers, so this IS something I care about, otherwise I would not have posted about it.

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leejo

Well as I suspected then you attempted to frame the discussion in a decidedly leftist manner. You didn't compare science and reason with hope and compassion.

Of course you don't. I suspect that you like the political banner under which they are so it doesn't bother you a bit.

Just out of curiousity, any Bush fans in that crowd? How many Dean supporters during the last primary season?

Steeler

I'm not following you. What did I say wrong now? There are positive and negative aspects to science and reason as well. But you didn't ask me to clarify my position on that.

What I'm saying is that there are conservative teachers and admins and liberal teachers and admins and everything in between depending on the local community. You can paint it with a broad brush and say, "we have a left-of-center school system," but look close enough and you're not going to find a coherent national in-classroom political agenda among teachers one way or another. But then I suspect that we have widely-differing opinions on what is left and what is right.

Which is why I asked you earlier, what exactly is this left of center that you have a problem with?

(Remember, Democrat does not equal left. Republican does not equal right.)

One, and one. One Democrat I know of, and he did not like Dean. One Republican, and he voted for Kerry. The Bush voter is an independent. The rest are unaffiliated (just off the top of my head). Gosh, these labels are so hard to manage.

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TheFeniX

Like I said, it's part of my irrational belief system: I can't associate with a divine entity that let's the most vocal of his followers teach such hate. Hence, I don't associate with it at all.

Now, here's where the rationality kicks in: I ignore people like Falwell and others of his ilk until such time as their ranting begins to infringe on either my rights or the rights of others. Since they do that on a daily basis, they leave themselves open on that front. If they'd just keep that kind of thing to themselves, then there wouldn't be a problem.

And that's where the point comes into play: anyone who wants ID taught in science class is not only pushing God on kids, they're also making a mockery of science. I despise that.

Bush sure is. The guy has done all but come out and say "this war is good Christians fighting ignorant evil Muslims." And people were worried about a Catholic in office......

You need to define "God." I believe in A God, but not the Judeo-Christian God as Christians see him. But since Christians do in fact believe in God and the bible, they are easiliy used as evidence to show that He's a vengeful demi-god, not a peace-loving creator.

You could probably refine your statement to: "You blame the idea of the Christian God." That I might agree with.

But I still feel your arguement is lacking because I am fully justified in using the fictional actions of a God I don't believe in as evidence against a person who does believe in him. I know God didn't kill all the Egyption first born, but since there are people that do, I can use it as evidence when debating the policies of that particular religion.

I'm being repetative, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

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Rincewind

Maybe this is the point in a thread where we address the actual function of public education in the US and its science curriculum...

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leejo

Ha. Trying to re-hijack this hijacked thread are you?

Yeah I would argue that the purpose of public education is twofold: 1) have an educated electorate; 2) have a capable workforce.

The purpose of science in the curriculum would be to inculcate critical thinking and a set of practical skills. I guess tossing in a few pseudo-theories like IT wouldn't hurt the critical thinking part of the process so long as you can guarantee that the instructor is good. This discussion has certainly been full of critical thought. I can't think of a practical, apolitical, application for IT.

leejo

I think there should be a compromise: drop the whole IT thing and make sure that Jesus Just Left Chicago gets taught in all music classes.

Pokerface

The discussion has gone on so long that leejo forgot the abbreviation for Intelligent Design.

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leejo

LOL Yes I did. I must have confused it with Idiotic Thinking.

Rincewind

lol I was wondering...

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No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

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Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

leejo

I still think Jesus Just Left Chicago should be required somewhere.

Rincewind

Apparently he left Chicago, but the train he left on was diverted from New Orleans due to a hurricane. Jesus now resides in Little Rock. Every student should know.

__________________
~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers