leejo

You don’t have to worry ’cause takin’ care of business is his name.

TheFeniX

Kids should definately learn about religion in school. It gives amazing amounts of insight into the human thought process. It's been a very important part of history since man came around. But it needs to be taught in a rational manner in a history or theology class.

Kids shouldn't be taught religion in public school, they should be taught about religion in public schools.

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Rincewind

Technically, a lot of the history that is taught in schools is directly affected by religion: Classical Mythology, Crusades, Inquisition, Protestant Reformation, Colonization, Imperialism, etc. Basically Everything. Most of our modern history is taught through the aperture of religious motivation simply because most 'macro' history is driven by it.

Religion is inescapable. It is a part of humanity and it drives much of what we do as a race. Teaching that to kids in a public school is fine by me. I would hope they could learn and be taught about the deep, philosophical connection that humanity has to religion and faith--it is simply too important to be ignored or downplayed. I would like, though, for indoctrination to be left at the door.

Science is what it is. Faith in the context of religion is what it is. Both of them work (depending on what your definition of work is I guess).

Science education should be about science education and not about injecting doubt, confusion, and subversive pseudoscience (religion or whatever) into the already watery version of the subject most school districts are teaching. It’s no wonder that a lot of folks can’t grasp basic scientific principles; they weren’t taught how to.

ID is not driven by science. It’s not science. It’s another attempt to indoctrinate children into a religious viewpoint with public money. Despite this, ID will be taught in schools, just as creationism is now. Not as science but as history.

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Mateo

You may not see him in person, but he'll see you just the same.


-Rev. WillieG

leejo

Yeah yeah

Steeler

Little Rock? Chicago? I thought he caught the last train for the coast the day the music died. You know, him and those other two.

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Mateo

Oh man, you no old JC, he moves from one end to the other, and all points in between.

leejo

Took a jump through mississippi, muddy water turned to wine.
Then out to california through the forests and the pines.

Infrequent Visitor

Marstein brings up the point that seems to be missing from this debate in all it various forums:

There are things that are unknowable.

I can no more answer the question of where God came from than a scientist can tell me where energy came from. A Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang? Either belief system has an eternity past and an eternity future; eras beyond what we can see with the tools we have at hand or can predict with what we know.

In the end, we all base our beliefs on faith. I know most of you are probably all but screaming at your screens that you are basing your belief on hard science. But have you done the basic research yourself? Or do you accept (on faith) what you have read in a text book or been told by a professor? Have you seen the finches or examined the fossils yourself?

I am a great fan of the empirical method. With a century and a half of naturalists in the field since Darwin, is it unreasonable to ask for someone to show me a truly new AND beneficial mutation in nature? If you can not, is it reasonable to condemn me for looking for an alternative model which doesn't require new and beneficial mutations? We know empirically that species change over time. Humans have grown taller over the last several centuries. But we're still human, not neohumans.

Religion should not preclude good science any more than good science should preclude religion. In my world view, good science is a fabulous way to better understand the Creator.

At the end of the day, Origins is outside the realm of science. Science can only address that which we can see and test now. Science has no way of testing to either prove or disprove what may or may not have happened yesterday, let alone thousands or millions of years ago.

Research the evidence for yourself and make a decision as to what you will believe. But understand that what you come away with is still a belief based on faith in the sources you chose invest with the most credibility.

CingularDuality

Great points, but I wanted to explain my feelings on this "faith" thing that you mentioned...

It seems to me that religious people have "blind faith". They've never seen god, or direct evidence of god, and yet they believe it exists.

My "scientific faith" is based on experiences. No, I've never seen the Ecuadorian iguanas in person, but I've seen video and photos and I KNOW how video and photos scientifically record events. Should I blindly believe in scientific textbooks? No, that's why in school, you conduct experiments yourself: You're not setting out to learn anything new, you just read about it in the book, you're confirming the data in the book firsthand.

When's the last time we confirmed data in the Bible/Koran/Bhagavad Gita? We can't because they're storybooks from a distant time...

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

It's not blind at all, just looking with a different set of eyes. I know that I love my daughter but you can't measure it. I can't point at it. But it's a fact that I feel with every part of my being.

Ditto God.

CingularDuality

I'm not talking about your love for god. I'm talking about its existence. Have you seen him? Shook his hand? Looked up in sky and pointed to your friend that there he is, looking down at you and waving? No. Just like I haven't seen a species evolve, you haven't seen god.

I've got facts from credible sources that back up the theories behind evolution. You have, what? The bible? Your personal feelings? What other evidence do you have of god's existence? (And please don't tell me to look around. "Have you seen a sunset? Is that not proof in itself that there must be a god? Could a human possibly have created something that beautiful?" <barf> )

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

Well I dunno dude. I know that my wife is CONSTANTLY doing things like "knowing" that hurricane Rita is going to pass north of Houston near the LA border when all the tracks show it passing to the south of Houston. She "knows" things that seem daffy to any reasonable person, and then she turns out right. I'm suggesting that there are other ways of knowing, and maybe other ways of measuring that science hasn't found yet.

I'm not trying to convince you to believe in something you don't want to, but consider the possibility that science might be missing something.

CingularDuality

Science is based on the fact that they're missing something! Science exists to learn new things!

But until somebody can provide EVIDENCE that there's a god, I refuse to believe in something because some preacher says it exists. If it exists, SHOW ME.

Hell, even the paranormal freaks are able to present evidence of their beliefs. Not always enough to be credible, but...

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

Well that's the rub right there. We're talking about the existance of a being who transcends "evidence", not being subject to, but the creator of, space and time. I think we're going to be stuck with either believing or not without supporting documentation or excuses. You and I are and will remain completely free to believe as we please.