Karkianman101

Science is about the Scientific method. Creationism in no way uses the Scientific Method, and therefore it has no place in any class under the category of science. Creationism is just a cop out, saying "Its too complex, I dont understand how people could have arisen, and if its too complex with too small a chance to have had these results, then it MUST be that God made it". Its Aquinian logic, which I mean as no logic.

Consider this: Yes, the results of evolution are very very small in terms of likliness. How is it that after billions of years of evolution we got humans as they are? Simple. If it wasnt humans, it might be some other sentient species asking the same question, saying "Whats the liklihood that evolution produced our exact species?", or perhaps a sentient animal akin to human intelligence would not have been produced.

Trooper

it takes more faith to believe in creationism then it does evolution....to let someone say we came from this and everyone believe is so easy...but to believe in something greater and better for the world that is mind blowing. faith.


where in sceince does it say that the sun will arise tomorrow, or how O2 made in to our atmosphere let alone ne other ellement in the sky. sceince can not explain how it happened. they can "say" what makes them up but not how they are where put here.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
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Pokerface

Just the opposite, I think. I shall demonstrate below.Science can't do all that. Science doesn't prove things, it just DISPROVES things over and over again so often that it seems like the opposite is true.

"The sun came up every day before now, and rotation and revolution of gigantic masses indicate that it will do so again tomorrow." Man, how much of a leap of faith is THAT? Religion (generally) has an all-powerful being that keeps this stuff in check; the sun's gonna rise because that's the way God made it. Science doesn't have that kind of backup, but it makes the assertion nonetheless, an assertion from Man based on the findings of Man, and not an infallible omnipotent guide. If that isn't faith, I don't know what is.

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Trooper

this is why i love these discusions..you learn so much about people....i mean that sincerely....poker is right and i can see what he is getting at.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

Mishkan

I am with Cingular on this one. I am an agnostic Athiest as well.

I grew up in a conservative Jewish family up in Plano, Texas (hellhole for non-christians). I then felt that I should pursue my own path after a short time and here I am. I have no problem with religion at all. If religion makes you a better person, I am in full support of you, go ahead and be a better person. I only dislike it when people attempt to force their religion on me (like in Plano).

On Creationism: I believe it shouldn't be taught in schools at all, but Evolution be recognized as merely a well-proved theory among with many others. Because the people who will actually care about creationism will have been taught in their Sunday School's etc.

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leejo

Right. That's inductive logic and the entire basis of the scientific method: the idea that things will continue to be the way they have been. The sun has risen every day for many billion years. Therefore it will rise tomorrow? I've risen every day for 36 years ( and 37's coming like a freight train) but I know that at some point the odds of my rising tomorrow go down, not up.

Dammit.

Anyway, believe in God. Don't believe in God. Suit yourself. Evolution is a theory like all the other theories: there's no reason to think it will survive any more than a zillion other theories that have been disproven upon further review. But neither creationism nor intelligent design is a scientific theory because neither can be disproved through experiment (Excellent point about that Poker) and so neither should be taught in a class about science.

Might as well read a poem about wind to a physical science class as teach intelligent design to a biology class: oil and water.

leejo

I disagree. Creationism is a belief, not a cop-out. I happen to believe in a Creator AND believe that evolution is a reasonable explanation for how organisms have...evolved. They're not mutually exclusive ideas.

And Thomas Aquinas was working with relatively primitave instrumentation. Most of the advances we've seen in science are directly related to the increased precision with which we can measure. Cut him some slack.

leejo

I am so very sorry. You had me at Plano.

Back when Plano kids were ODing on herion left and right I thought a cool band name would be "Plano Smack". Can't stand that town.

I think this gets at the heart of the issue. Were it not for the systematic squeezing of All-Things-Christian out of large chunks of public life in a manner that completely disregards this ethos instead of requiring equal time for all points of view, I think we'd be hearing little of this debate. Maybe I'm overrating my fellow Jesus-freaks, though.

tau_neutrino

There are a few holes in the fossil record, but that's due to the chance of fossils forming (very low). It is very likely that most transitional species have left no fossil record at all.

A better way to analyze the evolutionary history of organisms is to look for homologous sequences in their genomes (sequence alignment scores of genes can tell quite a bit). Based on these scores, one can construct a tree showing the relationships among a number of species. This brings new probs as the term 'species' is difficult to define.

BTW, just so everyone is on the same page.. evolution is defined as the change in gene frequency over time within a population. So every birth, death, mutation, etc is evolution in action. So yes, evolution is a FACT. The exact mechanisms of evolution is the theory part.

Karkianman101

I meant trying to apply creationism to science, not believing in a divine power

And I read a few pages of his works last year. His logic was kind of... overly self supportive. He would make an if then statement, then automatically assume that the if was fact, building and building the statements until he came to a conclusion that was based on a lot of "possibilities", dictating it as fact. Something like "Hot things come from fire, which is purer heat. Therefore, there must be a purer thing that fire comes from, a pure heat. Ergo, there must be a pure origin for all things, and that thing must be God. I just proved God's existance!"

leejo

I agree. On the other hand, he makes a good point. Why does a stove get hot? Keep digging and eventually you get to the unknowable. Read up on Bell's Theorem. The more you dig the weirder the universe gets, and yet it generally remains elegant in the mathematical sense. Call it anything you like but there's a method in there and you might as well call it intelligent, and you might as well call it God, Flying Noodly Appendage, Allah, Krishna, Jehova, Brahman....

My guess is that the notion of God-As-Bearded-Honkey is about as far from the truth as God-Does-Not-Exist.

Cing's wearing a bright orange vest on Heaven's Highway though. Of that I'm certain. Someone's gotta pick up the trash.

Karkianman101

But in Heaven all drivers realise that pedestrians have universal right of way, and everyone in heaven is a good driver, so they all see him and wait patiently until he moves before they continue driving

I'm an agnostic atheist too. I also believe that if there really is a God, that he would understand how not everyone believes in him. Theres a really good quote from someone that I forgot most of. Something like "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you. Once you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, then you will understand why I dismiss yours."

It doesnt help when I myself in act am a better Christian than most Christians I know, since I suspect that being a good person is more important to Christianity than just believing in God.

marstein

With creationism you can't explain everything. Who created the creator? This belief (not theory, ok) is not a solution, it explains not much in the end. Is there another creator that created the creator? Can we say there was nothing and only god's spirit floated over the water? Water is not nothing. Someone would have to proof that you can create something from nothing then.
In any case we do have a tool at hand: Occams razor: if you have two theories you always pick the one that is more plausible. Picking between some creator who came out of nowhere and a theory that explains things change slowly over time is easy.

Santa

Odd that this came up because a week ago i had to break it to my very religious parental units that i wasnt religious. Boy lemme tell ya, that was fun

Anyway, my view is that humans do not have the knowledge to know if theres a god or not. People ask "Well then what made everything? There must be a God". Why cant we ask right back "What made god?". I just dont think we can ever know the answer to these questions until we die, and thats only if theres an afterlife.

If there is a God, i highly doubt He follows any of the religions man has made. I think we as a race have been trying to find the answer to these big questions, and thus we have many different religions for different people to explain why things are the we they are. Greek and Roman mythology tried to explain why things are the way they are, and are obviously very incorrect. I dont see why the same wouldnt hold true for todays religions. For all we know in 2000 years kids will be reading 21st century mythology in English class.

Im not anti-religion though. It does tend to make people more moral. (though you can still of course be moral if your not religious, contrary to what many people think) I also think religion has started a lot of hate and wars, but its hard to say if we wouldnt have those wars and such without religion. If whatever faith your a part of makes you happy and a good person, then by all means keep practicing your faith, just dont force it on people or think your better then they are.

What drove me away from Christianity are the things i stated above, and a few other things. I hate organized religion, some of the ideas seem a bit fairy tale-ish, and theres too many ifs for me to want to commit myself to a faith. I am however reading different books on different beliefs so as to not be ignorant and maybe find something i can actually believe in.

Addict

Funny how a discussion of Inteligent Design turns into a debate about religion.

You realise, if it turns out that Inteligent Design IS all about religion, then it will be disallowed to be taught in schools. There is precedent already to ban the mandatory teaching of Creationism in science class. If you equate the two, i don't know what outcome you expect.

Now, what interests me a bit, did this discussion turn this way because Inteligent Design *is* Creationism all gussied up? Or becuase those who believe in Evolution want to present it that way, to set up a straw man?

Just thought I'd try and tie the discussion back into that article that Cing used to reincarnate this stinky topic.