leejo

That would be Hinduism, which has many many instances of Krishna coming to Earth, usually to get laid. Definitely a personal relationship. Not with me, though: that would be awkward at best.

Zeus did it, too.

Christianity may be the only religion that claims that God became incarnate for purposes other than getting it on, but I'm not sure.

Trooper

i should really think before i type but like thats going to happen.


actually in the 70's there was a denomintion of christianity called hookers for christ...um it was a "colony" in florida that used sex to get people to join..not sure where they got their theology from but it was messed up.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

CingularDuality

Man, if a god came down from on high, in the form of, say, Charlize Theron, and said that she wanted a "personal relationship" with me, I'd become religious real quick...

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leejo

Yeah funny how the lady Gods never seem unsatisfied with life up there, though.

Great excuse if ever caught in an infidelity though. Sorry babe: when a lady god commands I obey. With gusto.

Mateo

You all need to watch Dogma, and chill out. Both Evolution and Intelligent design are IDEAS....to hold them as beliefs is silly.

Yes, the available scientific evidence supports evolution....scientific evidence can be wrong. See vioxx. One minute it's safe, the next, it's a killer. All proven via the scientific method.

Science is an explanation of percieved phenomena using a testing method which includes logical and mathematical modes, trial and error, and observation. It does not have a complete picture of the universe because the method is used on discrete subsamples of a population, and extrapolated for the whole.

There is also a massive potential for error: starting with the wrong premise, the wrong population, or allowing personal filters to color observation.

There is also potential for devolving into hubris and dogmaticism.

Same with ID. ID looks at what is going on in the world and says "there is a design, there must be intelligence behind it!" and *shaaaaa-zam* there is GOD.

Noone asked GOD's opinion on the matter.

As a matter of faith, they have their own method: observable processes are taken as proof of God, whether data or prior observerances contradict that extrapolation.

There is also the potential to look at a sacred text as the final word on the subject, despite the fact that it was, in the end, written down, edited, and published by men.

Again there is a massive potential for error: starting with the wrong premise, and allowing personal filters to color observation.

Again, there is a potential for devolving into hubris (you know the mind of God) and dogmaticism.

Both are ideas, that get turned into beliefs. Beliefs are matters of faith: they stifle your own rational thought, in favor of a set of prepackaged ideas. Once you've taken in those preconcieved ideas, they are hard to change.

Think of it as an ideological McDonalds: if you get the Big Mac, sans special sauce, it's really hard to get them to fix it when they give it to you with the sauce. The prepackaged Big Mac doesn't allow for changes.

What we are, as thoughtful, rational human beings, is capable of holding extremes of concepts in our minds at the same time. So we may have an idea that God exists, BUT, we can make observable inferences about the prime mover's creation. We may also say that the world came to be via evolutionary forces, and conceed that some prime moving force set the whole works in motion.

Either way, dogmatism and inflexible belief in one method or the other is a fallacy. Neither view can be substantiated over time without direct observation of the time of creation, or the creator himself.

It should be "The world, as I see it, is like this.....UNLESS......"

Hold an idea, not a belief.

TheFeniX

I wouldn't consider it "negative pursuit." It's merely a statement of fact. By American society's own moral definition: the Judeo-Christian god is a mass-murderer. He's not a God of love, he's a God of vengence, like a lot of other Gods. That's probably because it's easier to use him to control unruly peasants through fear and hate than through love. It also makes it easier to justify crushing those who oppose you.

To me, it's more an exercise in hypocrisy and caustic humor at it's worst. People preach a good line on "love thy neighbor," but once they find out that neighbor isn't just like they are, it's another story. I mean... trying to justify murder, persecution, and bigotry by citing a 2000+ year old book? What else can really get away with that besides religion?

It's hard to believe the thinly veiled hatred that most of my Christian friends have for Jewish people. It's like hating your Dad for being born before you. Then they look at me funny when I ask them why they hate Jesus. Ha!

The real humor for me comes from the fact that I do believe in a God, even though there is a 99.9999999% probability that he does not exist and that when I die, I'm going to be worm food and nothing more. It's kind of like my belief that people are basically decent human-beings, even though I've been proven wrong time and time again.

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leejo

Your friends' thoughts on jews is their problem, not yours, God's, or Christ's.

With regard to mass-murder, again you're hung up on the now. If there is an afterlife that is eternal, then what happens on earth would be trivial. If there is a heaven, then mass murder would be a mass blessing.

If you blame God for all these deaths, then why aren't you willing to praise Him for these lives? That's what I mean about being negative.

I've had friends talk about prayer in the context of having a conversation with God. Sometimes those are angry, frustrated conversations. "God I am so angry with you right now. I don't understand how you could" ... etc. I can't imagine how I would react if anything happened to my daughter. Absolutely heart-wrenching (2 Sam. 18:33).


That's fair. It's ok to be angry at God. Just keep the conversation going and leave the door open.

CingularDuality

I might be getting too personal here, and if I am, just tell me, but when you have a conversation with god, does he respond? I mean, do you hear or feel an answer while you're praying and having one of these frustrated conversations? Or is it all one-way and things will happen in the future that you interpret as "answers" to your questions?

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TheFeniX

It's a little more involved than that.

If it's so trivial, then why is God using death as a punishment? Then why does it ever matter what I do in this life? There's nothing "trivial" about life, that's why.

So.... a woman has 9 kids... she kills one and goes to trial: an adequate defense would be "but I raised my other 8?"

Why are we held to higher standards than God?

I can't be angry at a God I don't believe in. You still seem to be hung up thinking that I'm just a Christian who's dealing with some form of religious confusion in my life.

If I were to say.... "Zeus was a murderer and philanderer who would have been put to death if he was real:" would we even be having this conversation? Our difference is you believe the Christian God is a real being and you're defending his actions. I'm arguing if that the Christian God was real then he'd be a horrible God and not worth my time.

It would be like me hating Santa Clause.

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leejo

Most of the time, I hear a voice. It says in the most beautiful reassuring voice "kill Cing. Kill Cing and I'll make it stop. Kill Cing and all this pain will go away."

Naw seriously I don't know anyone who hears voices or sees a light blink once for yes twice for no. But there is certainly an effect. I'd describe it more a as a presence. Hard to explain, but pretty easy to experience

I once had a friend pray for a three-way that shortly came to pass. A strange prayer for a strange dude, but he was sincere and My Main Man hooked him up.

Steeler

Ah, but you don't have to believe in Santa Claus to concede that some Santa-like entity must be responsible for the array of gifts that appear at homes each Christmas Eve.

The theory of Intelligent Delivery posits that although the appearance of SOME presents could be explained by the random purchase of goods by individuals, there are far too many gaps and inconsistencies in that explanation. The sheer complexity of the gift-giving and gift-receiving mechanism suggests an Intelligent Deliveryman of some sort. I'm not saying that that being is Santa Claus, per se, but it must be an intelligent force of some kind.

Sony PSPs display a level of irreducible complexity that cannot be explained by chance manufacture.

</snark>

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leejo

How so?

No YOU are demanding that God conform to YOUR standards. It's like a child screaming "but you said you loved me. I hate you!" in a tantrum.

You just said you believe in God. You sure spend a lot of time talking about something you don't believe in. I don't mean to patronize. I think I've gone out of my way to avoid giving you that impression. If you aren't interested in the discussion we can stop but I will say that you give every impression of being a person who is struggling with a religious confusion.

Probably not. But you didn't say that and it's not the conversation we're having.

I think that's a fair assessment, but I'm defending something I believe is real and you're going off on something you claim not to believe in. How weird is that? If you ever catch me in a protracted discussion about how the Easter Bunny would have handled a certain situation or should have behaved in another situation, call me on it. But you won't because I don't give a damn what the Easter Bunny does or whether or not you believe in him. You seem to care a lot about whether or not other people believe in God and you have specific gripes with His actions.

Personally, I don't care if you believe in God or Buddha or Krisha or Allah or Jehovah or the Easter Bunny, or nothing at all if you're happy and it's satisfying to your spirit. I used to get hung up on the exclusivity of Christianity but now I just don't think about that any more and pretty much leave what happens to us after we're dead up to God: if only Christians get into heaven I'll be surprised and if everyone gets into Heaven I'll be happy. In the meantime I try to focus on what I am supposed to do, take what I can from my religion, and trust that either I'm not ready to understand the parts with which I have concerns or settle on the position that it's not my job to fix the religion or God. His game His rules.

I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat or preach to you. You seem to be interested in these discussions since you've had them here several times, and I'm trying to tell you what works for me.

Mateo

Yeah, I can really see that: God, I've been a good boy, help me bring this adultery to pass.

Help me to covet my neighbor's wife!

Uh-huh.

That only works if God is Barry White.

Face it: the Main Man doesn't do party favors.

leejo

All I'm saying is the guy prayed for it and it happened. I was in no serious way suggesting a causal relationship. And nobody was married so I guess it was a mere adultery.

God did give us Barry White....aw yeah.

I mentioned the 3-way prayer because while I haven't personally tried that tactic, I admired his honesty with God. It occurs to me that some of my more odd requests have been granted as well. Hmm.

The point is to have a completely open and honest relationship with God - closer than your wife. If you're mad about something, tell him. If you're horny, tell him. I can say things to God that...I'd still be getting slapped if I told my wife.

Darkstar68

I sent that link to my wife - She responded by saying that she "...had been touched by a noodly appendage a few times".

What the hell! We'll see if I take her out to diner tonight...

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