leejo

OK I think it would be helpful if you could try to find a way to disagree with me without implying that I'm a liar. I may have made a math mistake, you may have misunderstood, you may have your facts wrong.

The statistics you quoted above indicated a 1%/day savings according to some California State study. In '98 the USA consumed 18.92 million barrels a day (http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html) so that's a savings of $344 million each year (18.92*1% savings*28 new days*$65/barrel) at today's prices.

$344 million a year may not be much to you, but if I can save that much by setting my clock back it seems like a reasonable step. Some folks like yourself may get stressed out this year but it'll pass and next year it'll be another cool $344 million.

In any case, daylight savings time was implemented as a means of saving $$ and I suspect that you have an incomplete picture of the benefits this time.

Anyway, I'm sorry you have to do work because of this, but it seems like a terrible fight to pick. Americans Against Daylight Savings Time.

I'll be nursing a cold one watching the sun go down.

IceCold

Small energy/money savings
An increase in "summer hours"
Decreased suicide rates (OK, so this is a stretch, but it'll probably turn out to be true... Suicide rates skyrocket in the winter months.)

What are the disadvantages? Rich geeks that have alarm clocks with DST programmed will have to start setting their clocks like the rest of the world? Boohoo...
Practically none. All traffic signal systems that are advanced enough to have different programs based on the time of day are computerized and will only need a patch to change the system time, just like with PCs. I have a friend in San Diego that works on these systems. Amazing stuff, really.

__________________

SmokingTarpan

I doubt this, and nevermind the fact that things are still dying outside and big holidays are still happening. People in general seem to be under the impression that DST (and changes to DST) will increase the amount of daylight there is, which is incorrect. It only changes things so that the average person will be awake when there is the most daylight. No matter what time you get out of bed, there is no changing the fact that you get about 15hrs daylight in the summer (at solstice, not near equator) and 9hrs daylight in the winter (at solstice). So, if you always get up at sunrise no matter the time, it still won't matter because there is still less daylight.

Think about how much work will be required to make these patches. I refer you to my Y2K example from earlier.

Regardless of everything, I personally think the whole DST thing is stupid to begin with. Wake up with the sunrise, go home 8-10hrs later. Adjust accordingly for the night shift.

Humanity survived quite a long time without DST. It was started in 1916 in Germany, and adopted in 1918 for the US- for seven months (for WWI). The US later re-instated it in 1942 for WWII before removing it again in 1945, then re-instated in 1966 (our current installment). It's quite questionable as to whether DST really saves energy anyway. Whether you wake up at 5am or 9pm, the lights in your workplace are still going to be on as long as people are in the office. Air conditioning and heaters will be the same way. The most benefit is for those that work out of doors, as it provides more usable light (easily countered by waking up with the sunrise regardless of the time). For those of us in the office though, 8hrs is still 8hrs, whether the sun is out or not.

(DST info source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_savings_time )

__________________

[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Buck Fush

It's a stupid idea. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong. It's a silly argument, so I'm done with it.

Leejo, I did not intend to imply that you were lying, only twisting words. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

rs_al

There are so many variables not accounted for in these estimates - it's not as simple as everyone using 1 less hour of lighting. It doesn't take into account things like people who don't turn their lights on, people who get home after it's already dark (around 6ish for the new shift), people who turn their lights on when they get home anyway. It also doesn't account for people turning their lights on in the morning, because they're losing daylight. It doesn't account for that extra hour people have to run their air conditioners during the summer.

The most recent californian estimate for an extension like this one found that the benefit is roughly .5%, so half of the figure you had. The actual up-front savings in the evening is slightly more but they also accounted for increased usage in the morning. This article has details on studies into the benefits: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n..._daylight.html

IceCold

Semantics. Please assume for the rest of this thread that when someone refers to "more daylight" that they mean "more usable, practical daylight for the average person working a normal job."
No, the Y2K problem pervaded large, old databases. DST problems are going to be much more of a niche problem. Large industrial computer systems don't recognize DST at all unless they've been updated, in which case it's easy to patch.

You guys are making mountains out of molehills just because you don't like DST.

__________________

rs_al

As I pointed out earlier, this is not the case with recent DST changes. The majority of people (including the "average people with normal jobs") will lose an hour of daylight in the morning.

Does it need to be a mountain? Maybe the molehills weren't welcome to begin with.

But hey if you're down with the government casually making far-reaching changes to the clock without any research and little warning, I guess there's nothing I can do.

Pokerface

No, I think that anyone who makes systems that need to be precise in their time calculations will really see this as a mountain. This isn't about my computer accounting for DST correctly, it's about shipping, transportation, and every other industry where what time something happens matters a whole hell of a lot. Even if you've coded a system to rely on another source (like your OS or whatnot), you have to ensure that your source is correct.

I think we all like DST just fine, but that's because other people worked their butts off to make it a simpler process on the rest of us. We don't particularly relish the idea of doing it again ourselves.

__________________

NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
<anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
<LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash
Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

=DdogG=

OK, you misunderstand one point in my post and forget about the rest.... I was not saying for the manufacturer to turn it off, I meant for you to do it personally. No company would make a product hard coded to change the time, since there are places in the country that do not change time. If you have a device that changes on its own without getting the change from a time server, then you have the ability to disable that function. Stop complaining about all the engineers blah blah blah... there is no argument here..... it is bogus and unfounded... point me to a link of just one device that will now need to be changed manually 4 times a year instead of zero. I will show you how to turn off the auto DST feature.

__________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison

If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

=DdogG=

I live in podunk Sevierville, and every traffic light here is computer driven. some are trip/timed, but all act different based on traffic, time of day, and traffic at other lights. the time of day is only a small part, as some go to flashers after 11:00 or 12:00, but one computer system controlls them all.

I can pretty much assure you that every city is like that.

The only industry that would be affected by a change in DST would be travel, as they book far enough in advance and have schedule times to the minute..... of course, they are never on time anyway.

entertainment (tv/radio) would not be affected as they can rebuild program schedules weekly and daily or even on the fly if they have to.

__________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison

If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

=DdogG=

my alarm clock does not change by itself, I do it, and it takes 5 seconds.
all items that get the time from a server.. those servers get the time from another server, and another and so on.... eventually, they all get the time from one clock... the atomic clock. someone programs that clock, every other time server gets patched.... one clock. one. not millions.

as I said before, someone please link to one piece of equipment that changes time for DST by itself without the ability to program the date it does so on, the ability to turn off said feature, or getting the time change from a server. there is not one.

__________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison

If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

SmokingTarpan

That's why I included the little description of what the change actually means, and I know that you understood that to begin with (but lots of people don't). Still doesn't negate the fact that there's less sunlight in total in the winter (usable or not doesn't matter), which is the contributing factor to suicide rates that was under discussion.

Why should I have to turn off a feature that is supposed to be helpful (auto time correction) because some people in Washington want to mess with time?

Personally, I think what would save much more energy than extending DST would be educating people on how to live more responsibly. No, you don't need air conditioning running 24/7 in the summer. Get people to buy better windows and insulate their homes properly. Convince people that they can walk to the snack store two blocks away instead of driving there. Tell people/kids they should be playing outside instead of sitting at that computer all day.

__________________

[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

leejo

Jesus H Christ what a bunch of crybabies. Suck it up! Be a man! Don't whine about the f***** CLOCK change like it just banged your momma.

SmokingTarpan

Such an intelligent, mature and thought-provoking argument. It saddens me that more people do not have the mental capacity to contribute valuable information such as this to discussions about world events.


Well, that's over and done with. So, whether it's a molehill or a mountain, there's extra work do be done because of the change to DST. Question is, is this the best way that we could reduce our energy consumption? If yes, let's hear the reasons why. If no, what are some ways that we can adjust our every day lives to help out?

For me, I think DST is pretty lame. Here's some stuff I do to keep energy consumption down (in the summer at least):

-AC is on for a max of 1-2 hours per day, and only when it's 90 degrees or more outside. That's enough to cool the apartment down.
-Use a nice oscillating fan on low or medium, and move it around with you. A breeze does wonders to cool you down, and there's no reason for a fan in a room that you're not in.
-Lights off during the day. Keep blinds closed to keep the place cool, and open them if you need light.
-Drink lots of cold water. You'll be amazed at how much that alone will cool you down.
-Walk almost everywhere that you can, even if it's kinda far away. I buy gas roughly once per month, unless I have to travel out of town (infrequent).

All that stuff not only reduces energy consumption, but saves me a ton of money as well. Others?

__________________

[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

leejo

No-one's mental capacity is the issue. "It saddens me"?...Poor puddin.

Here's a newsflash: daylight saving time is not a world event. As far as mature and thought-provoking arguments go, I'm afraid I can't contribute to this clucking: If you find a point about what time shows on the clock that rises above some griping about having to do a little work, be sure to let your congressional rep. know about it. Maybe they'll give a damn.