SuperSteve

Where did you learn this? Are you, in fact, in contact with said extremists? All this talk about understanding them, and I highly doubt that you have ever even been to any muslim nation, let alone, any nation in the middle east. Also, I want you to think about something, do you think that your sympathy for them, by defending their crimes on the internet is going to stop them from beheading you? No. You are an American, that is all the justification that they require, and I say that because it seems that they don't give a damn either way. It's not going to matter either way, because look at what they have already done. You are an American, your pleas of "I have sympathy for you" are not going to work, they don't even speak english. There is no reasoning with these people, they have shown that, if they are fighting now, they most likely will not stop. If we stop, or if we had never begun, they would have simply taken 9/11 as a victory, and felt that they could do it again, and again, and again.

Are you actually looking to support these criminals? Have they not killed your own people? Do you actually think that they would sit down and be willing to work things out if their leader won't even show his face to the world?

Replacing democracies with Dictatorships-
Do you not feel that we have done them a favor by setting up a democracy in Iraq where their own personal beliefs will be honored? Where they will be able to think freely? Or do you think that having a leader who killed simply out of paranoia would be better. Because anyone who thought out against Saddam in Iraq was murdered. At least when the insurgents are out of Iraq and have decided to inhabit some hole in the gorund somewhere else, the Iraqi citizens will have a government that allows them to live freely.

One more thing -
Have you ever read anything about Saddam's sons? Have you read anything about what horrible people they were? How they raped hundreds of women? Anything at all? Do you personally condone rape? Do you condone wanton murder as acceptable? These people would have recieved a deaht penalty in the Amercan courts, I personally believe that we are better for not having to hold them in a prison here. I mean, come on.

Fighting a war for oil-
Since the war in Iraq has begun, oil prices in Kentucky have went from roughly 1.20$ - 1.50$, to 2.20$ - 2.70$. That is definately a war to make oil prices cheaper.

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root: I do it to
steve: OMG
steve: TOO
root: ****ing hell
root: Spelling nazi down! MEDIC!

Go ahead, you know you all envy me, I corrected root's grammar

Karkianman101

I stopped reading at the first paragraph, because once you said that I was defending them I knew you hadnt read my post and understood it.

Quote ONE time that I have said I sympathize with them. Quote one time I have actually defended them, and said they have done nothing wrong. NO. I havent. Instead, you assume that because I shift some of the blame to us, that that means I sympathize with them.

IT IS THE ****ING TRUTH. Deal with it.

Then i went and read the rest of your post.

If you had actually read my posts, I already addressed your goddamn issues.
1) We did not go into war to free the Iraqi people.
2) Even if we did, in our time we have killed thousands of them. Real nice, huh? Liberating them?
3) There are many countries WORSE OFF. With people in worse situations. There are also countries that have more chance of having WMD's, and are more of a threat. The 1 thing that in any way elevates Iraq from them is the oil there.

Also, the high gas prices arent due to oil. Not at this point. The oil is bottle necking at the refinerys. We dont have enough refinerys to meet oil demand, so prices rise. Nobody can build any new refinerys for reasons I dont quite understand. Its like your computer gets lag in newer games. Newer games lag more. You have a 1 Ghz processor, and a 9800. Now sure. Getting a faster GPU may speed things up a little, but things are bottlenecking at your CPU. It is too slow to fully utilize your GPU. Now, we could either get a faster CPU (more refinerys), or a faster GPU (more oil). Which one would be smarter? The one that the US currently is not doing.

SuperSteve

Reasonably justified is still justified. That is defending IMO.

1- You are correct, we did not go to Iraq to free it's people, we went there because Saddam needed to be removed from power because there was evidence to support beyond a reasonable doubt, that there was WMD's being built. Did we find any? No. You also have to realize, there are really 2 wars here that are smashed into one, a war against Terrorism, and a war against Saddam. Saddam was also supporting these terrorists if you don't exactly remember.

2 - Yes, we have killed thousands of them, but, it was not purposefully. Saddam has killed many many more in shorter periods of time than the (roughly) 2 years we have been there.

3- Name a country that is worse off, that is supporting terrorists, that we do not have soldiers in, and do you honestly think that having the oil is such a bad thing? We have 3 things to gain out of Iraq; support from the Iraqis, Less terrorists, and cheaper oil. How bad can that be? Our buying the oil helps these middle-eastern nations any way. You act like we are going over to Iraq and simply taking barrels of oil.

__________________

root: I do it to
steve: OMG
steve: TOO
root: ****ing hell
root: Spelling nazi down! MEDIC!

Go ahead, you know you all envy me, I corrected root's grammar

Karkianman101

Iran is more of a threat, and Im pretty sure its unoccupied. However, i dont know much about the people there.

Saddam was not working with terrorists. He tried once long ago to work with Bin Laden, but they found that they despised eachother too much.

There was no evidence beyond reasonable doubt that they were making WMDs. There was one decade old piece of possibly forged paper, unless I missed something else.

Karkianman101

Forgot this. No. I never said it was alright. But maybe I should have been clearer. They have actual reasons for doing what they do. Reasons that we can stop. We cant get by just blaming them and their culture. They are not the only culprits. So think of it as me attacking us rather than defending them. Theres a key difference. No, I dont think the US is bad and evil. But we have a habit of doing bad and sometimes evil things, and when we do those things, it is important that we realise that.

leejo

I keep asking what your end-state is and you keep dodging it. All you're doing is griping and making yourself feel clever since you "see" what you think none of us sees. You're wrong about that, and your ideas are useless: accept every one of your positions and translate them in to ACTION that accomplishes a GOAL. Show me that.

In practice it's not enough for an idea to be correct or good, it also must be actionable. The problem with the "we started this ourselves" position is that it leads nowhere.

Karkianman101

What the hell? An end state? I've already said, I DONT HAVE ONE. And I don't know whether or not they do either. But face it: We did bad **** to their region. In the future, we need to check that bad ****, because bad **** like some stuff we've done causes people to get angry and vindictive. Right now we are feeling the angry vindictive people.

This isnt about "getting gotten even with" at all. Its just what they are trying to do. WE need to realise WHY they get angry and STOP doing what CAUSES it.

leejo

"Bad ****"? I think you have a very simplistic and naive understanding of what's happening. And a racist one: who's "they"? The millions of Iraqis who braved death to vote, or the thousands of terrorists who blow up people standing in lines, far away from any Americans or other troops? How about the Sunni election workers who were shot in the head Friday? What did they do that's such "bad ****"?

And why isn't turn about fair play? "They" keep flooding into our countries, presumably because all the "bad ****" we do makes them want to live here. Are we therefor to be expected to lop off a few heads because we want an Islam-free western civilization?

CingularDuality

I really want to see the response to this post.

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leejo

I really want to see the explanation for your new avatar.

CingularDuality

It's in my sig...

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leejo

Oh that's nice!

Karkianman101

When did this become racist? What does your post have to do with anything else in this thread? Actually, it does take some amount of bravery to kill yourself, unless you are insane. I dont know where they suicide bombers actually stand on that distinction.

Please quote where I said that individuals deserve what they get. I havent said that. I have said that our country has done bad things. And the way that the insurgents choose to get back at our country is by killing Americans and those that support them.

"And why isn't turn about fair play?" What does this mean?

The insurgents and terrorists arent flooding our country (I hope). The majority of Muslims probably wont violently react to our culture spreading among theirs, and vice versa.

leejo

So how'd he do Cing? All you hoped for?

Karkianman101

Okay, now I can call you an *******.