leejo

There's not always an option that will work out "really well" in the short term. My grandmother right now has a tumor on her face that will either grow into her eye and brain, rupture and smell, and horribly distort her face, but will not kill her for a long time, or will require surgery that will remove half her face. After 8 weeks of radiation they can fit a prosthetic over the hole between her mouth and nose, and cover her right cheek.

Life is not always about choosing between champaign and caviar vs. a kick in the nuts.

The sad truth of war is that there often isn't an option that will work "really well". It's a choice between the awful and the horrible.

The war in Iraq may be the best bad option. It's the one that positions troops such that we can have as much an effect on Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia as we please.

leejo

You might be the best candidate that party can field.

Vulcan

LOL

Leejo your right in that it is a choice of bad decisions, but if you have to make a decision that's gonna be bad, but not horrific, it's best to make it as good as it can get. That's pretty much what most people disagree with, the fact that the war was hurried and now we're paying for it. I think bush figured he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting major support from other countries so that's why he went with what he had. He didn't try very hard though, he could have tried more. Something tends to always nag at me that he had a timeline in front of him and if he didn't meet that timeline he would not get re-elected, but that's just theory on my part.

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leejo

I had a political timeline in my head in late fall 01 and figured on a spring 03 invasion as well. I also figured that the invasion would be a cinch and the occupation would be much as it's been: pin-prick attacks that add up over time, politically. Invade too soon and the opposition party could have used those attacks to defeat Bush. Too close to the election and they would accuse him of wagging the dog.

There are, however, other considerations that dictate either a fall or spring invasion, but I think sping is best: the personnel and material build up of happens in the mild winter instead of the brutal summer.

I think they pretty much hit as soon as they could, and I think they did the right thing. It's too bad the fight has gone the way it has, but politically no-one would have batted an eye if we'd lost 5000 men in the invasion followed by quiet. This method is less spectacular but has a better impact for the other side in the press.

Vulcan

Such is the way of politics unfortunately. Though i do think if the bush administration had made attempts to achieve a major world effort that it would have been looked at much differently by the opposing party (democrats and independents). As we all know both parties will take up their vantage points every chance they get, because it's a majority two party system. I Honestly think he would have failed trying to negotiate, because it's not what he's good at IMO.

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leejo

You know, one thing that bugs me about the left is they've abandoned, for political expediency, the good fight for which they've always stood: liberating oppressed people. Nobody claims that SH was not a tyrant who imprisoned his nation. We all know the horror stories. Yet now the argument seems to be that we should not use military force to do anything about such situations.

In Kosovo and Bosnia, there was pressure from the left to stop the genocide. Now the question is "well why don't we do anything in Africa?", etc.

Wrong question. It ought to be "why don't we *also* do anything in Africa."

Big wars are about big social change. WWI was about the end of monarchical rule in Europe. WWII was about ending fascism in Europe. WWIII was about ending the rule of communism in Europe. I believe that when it's all said and done, WWIV will be about ending dictatorships in the Middle East, and maybe elsewhere.

This ought to be a cause the left embraces.

Anyway, I started the thread because I saw the blurb about Louis Freeh's Clinton kiss-off not to beat this dead horse. Most people believe what they please about Iraq and we're not going to change many minds at this point.

SmokingTarpan

Except that the goal of the conflict in Iraq wasn't started on the premise of liberating oppressed people. Start a fight on a false premise, change the premise halfway through, and of course people who supported the effort originally are going to get grumpy.

Personally, I'm okay with helping to liberate people that want to be free and are already actively fighting to become so. What I'm not okay with (false premise for war aside), is saying, "Look, oppressed people!" and invading another country to depose the current government and "free" the people. What if one day another country looks at the US and says, "The people there are oppressed by democracy, and we shall free them," and then invades? I certainly wouldn't be happy about it.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

leejo

I'm not talking about premises, I'm talking about facts. It's a fact that those people suffered and now are free. The majority of the country isn't being held hostage by these terrorists and can pretty much go about the business of rebuilding their lives.

It is sad that we can't liberate everyone, but it's good when national interest and a noble cause intersect, and worthy of your support.

rs_al

Wow, some guy who hated Clinton before he even got into office hates Clinton? Stop the presses! People need to listen to this guy complain.

EDIT: I removed it to be nice. FYI, http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showpos...9&postcount=14 . It's not the exact words I was thinking of, but it's definately the attitude. No, I'll not play today.

rs_al

Except Drudge is covering the mainstream media covering Freeh's story... Am I misunderstanding what story you are talking about?

Also, re: the terrible bias, I have a hard time recalling the headlines "Whitehouse Uneventful, No Extramarital Affairs Worth Mentioning" or "Operation Albanian Freedom: MISSON ACCOMPLISHED" back in the 90's. Must be getting old.

leejo

I haven't used silly rationalizations or middle school insults and I don't appreciate your slurs about me or how I would react to a hypothetical book. I think you should edit your post.