Sheehan's at it again - Page 6

**CingularDuality** · 10-28-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

We can argue semantics and points of order all you like but you still haven't rebutted any of the larger subjects at hand. Is it right to pursue a pax americana? Is the war in Iraq really helping our overall global interests? I'd rather talk about that than fight over third grade stuff like the difference between a fact and an opinion.

And, yet, you ignored the point of my reply to you and instead of responding, just called "straw man"? Make up your mind!

We're doing good things in Iraq. That's both a fact and an opinion...

Steeler · 10-28-2005, 09:53 AM

If you had read the rest of my post you would see that I DID respond to your comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

I would very much like it if everyone were free to live in an open society of their own determination - free from fear, free from opression, free from want. But you can't slap the word freedom on anything you please and call it success. A constitution doesn't categorically make one free. A pretty banner doesn't make a mission accomplished.

The Iraqis still have a lot of hurdles to clear before they have a stable, functional central government, assuming that the warring factions, corruption, and the insurgency don't tear it apart. We have Shiite police officers openly talking about waging a war of vengeance on the Sunnis, and we can't even trust the Iraqi military units we have trained not to betray our own guys to the insurgents. We're losing 10-15 civilians a day that we know about, and we can't even adequetely define who it is we're fighting against. Foreign jiadists? Baathists? Sunni partisans? Ethnic Shiites? Iranian agents? Home-grown nationalists? Take your pick.

I think we have no choice but to remain in Iraq to prevent an openly hostile civil war from erupting. That is the bed we've made for ourselves and we have to see it through. But it will be a long and costly war for all parties and there is no guarantee that we will ultimately benefit from the outcome. So pardon me if I don't get all misty-eyed at the purple fingers.

I believe that there will be an accounting within the next few years, and either the country will decide to swallow the bitter pill of a draft or other major economic sacrifices, or we will get the Hell out.

But if you're going to insult me with a silly canard like "you don't think that people having freedom is a good thing" then I'm going to call you on it.

**CingularDuality** · 10-28-2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

If you had read the rest of my post you would see that I DID respond to your comments:

Nope, you replied to my one "straw man" comment. The whole point of my reply was to clarify how ridiculous your original statement was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by You

The Iraq war has accomplished little outside of drawing us physically into a centuries-old internecine conflict in the Middle East.

The fact is that the Iraq war has accomplished a LOT. You can debate the semantics of my use of the word "freedom" if you want, but I'm not interested in that.

Quote:

But if you're going to insult me with a silly canard like "you don't think that people having freedom is a good thing" then I'm going to call you on it.

And if you try to insult America with a silly canard like "the Iraq war has done nothing good", then I'm going to call you on it.

Steeler · 10-29-2005, 03:59 AM

I'm not going to bother repeating myself again, Cing. It's all in the post there. You and I just live on different planets, apparently.

**Rincewind** · 10-29-2005, 11:30 AM

Being against the war in Iraq is not an insult or a slight to the United States.

**CingularDuality** · 10-29-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Being against the war in Iraq is not an insult or a slight to the United States.

And I'm not saying it is. But to ignore the good that has come from this war is ridiculous and is an insult to all of our troops that are over there doing good things...

Steeler · 10-29-2005, 06:40 PM

Maybe that's the source of our head-butting, then. I'm talking global tactics and you're talking boots on the ground. From the soldier's perspective, yeah, we're asking these guys to do the impossible, and they are charging in heads held high and doing a great job. The troops training police officers in basic tactics. The engineers helping to rebuild the infrastructure to give some sense of stability. The lieutenant with a true sense of a Basra neighborhood who leads a squad to track down a terror cell. Yeah, there are lots of good things being done on the ground.

But. strategically speaking, I think the powers that be made a mistake in going in. Globally, this has hurt us, and the chances that we'll walk away from this with a clear victory in the end are very slim. That's not meant to insult the people who are doing the actual fighting and dying. They are the only ones capable of turning this around. But I think they are paying a price that they should not have had to pay.

**CingularDuality** · 10-29-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Maybe that's the source of our head-butting, then. I'm talking global tactics and you're talking boots on the ground. From the soldier's perspective, yeah, we're asking these guys to do the impossible, and they are charging in heads held high and doing a great job. The troops training police officers in basic tactics. The engineers helping to rebuild the infrastructure to give some sense of stability. The lieutenant with a true sense of a Basra neighborhood who leads a squad to track down a terror cell. Yeah, there are lots of good things being done on the ground.

But. strategically speaking, I think the powers that be made a mistake in going in. Globally, this has hurt us, and the chances that we'll walk away from this with a clear victory in the end are very slim. That's not meant to insult the people who are doing the actual fighting and dying. They are the only ones capable of turning this around. But I think they are paying a price that they should not have had to pay.

I'm talking globally, too. I think that you're severely underestimating the power of those purple thumbs. We are changing attitudes in the Middle East. Our actions there now will impact the world for decades, maybe centuries, to come...

**Rincewind** · 11-01-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

We are changing attitudes in the Middle East. Our actions there now will impact the world for decades, maybe centuries, to come...

No one could argue that.

WR7 · 11-04-2005, 11:41 PM

http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

the war in Iraq= war on terror.

This is a list of information on Iraq, You can have your pick, un resolution after resolution, holding Saddam to the cease fire agreement he signed with us, stopping his WMD program after his refusal to cooperate ousted inspectors in 1998, or a terrorism sponsoring dictator, whose foreknowledge of WMD's development and deployment and collaborations with terrorists, coupled with there common hate of America constituted a threat we had every reason to act on. This is a man who brutally pillaged Kuwait, used chemical weapons on entire civilian towns; he also shot missiles at Israel to provoke a regional Arab Jew war. Take all that with the fact that Saddam was within miles of 60% of the world’s oil and you've got yourself a threat.

Has Iraq sponsored terrorism?
Yes. Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. The State Department has listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism through both Democrat and Republican administrations.

http://cfrterrorism.org/sponsors/iraq.html

Has Iraq ever used weapons of mass destruction?
Yes. In the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, Iraqi troops repeatedly used poison gas, including mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin, against Iranian soldiers, and dropping mustard-gas bombs on Iranian villages. Human Rights Watch reports that Iraq frequently used nerve agents and mustard gas against Iraqi Kurds living in the country’s north. In March 1988, Saddam’s forces killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons.

(Warning very graphic)
http://www.firethistime.org/halabjavictims.jpg
http://www.iraqdigest.com/Halabja-.jpg

Coalition troops destroyed at least three terrorist training camps, and soldiers of the 7th Marine Regiment destroyed a suspected terrorist camp early Sunday en route to Baghdad.
It featured a passenger-jet fuselage where numerous Iraqi defectors reported that foreign terrorists were instructed how to hijack airliners with utensils.
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp

Saddam Hussein paid bonuses of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, formerly the director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan, fled to Iraq after being injured as the Taliban fell. His safe place to fall back to was Iraq, not Iran or Syria, Iraq, were he stayed and remains.

Saddam’s forces killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilian Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons, men women and children littered the streets dead were they stood when the bombs fell.
http://www.barzan.com/hal66.jpg

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect5.html

Even in the absence if actual WMDs, those who combed through the remains of Saddam’s regime in Iraq have already turned up incontrovertible evidence of intent. Dr. David Kay, the chief arms investigator, reported results to congress, he found:

1.) A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment for continuing chemical and Biological weapons research.

2.) A prison complex used in human testing of BW agents, Iraqi officials were explicitly ordered not to report to the UN.

3.) New research on BW-applicable agents, Burcella and Congo Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin, which were not declared to the UN and done in secret.

4.) Documents and equipment, hidden in scientist’s homes that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation.

5.) Reference strains used to produce biological weapons concealed in a scientist’s home

6.) A line of UAV’s undeclared and that tested way out of range, with weapons delivering abilities.

8.) Plans and designs for long range missilery with ranges of up to 1000 km, well beyond the imposed UN limits

9.) Clandestine attempts at obtaining long range missilery from the N. Korean’s.

Any way you slice it, there’s no denying Saddam’s intent- not only to develop prohibited weaponry, but to destroy all traces of any weapon. “In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts” Dr. Kay told Congress,

“We have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documents and computers evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affair..._10022003.html

UN Security Council resolutions on Iraq, threatening war, now just imagine this in our own terms, would you be ok with a murderer getting a slap on the wrist and a reprimand this many times to run free in the community.

1490, 1483, 1476, 1472, 1454, 1443, 1441, 1409, 1382, 1360, 1352, 1330, 1302, 1293, 1284, 1281, 1280, 1275, 1266, 1242, 1210, 1205, 1194, 1175, 1158, 1154, 1153, 1143, 1137, 1134, 1129, 1115, 1111, 1060, 1051, 986, 949, 899, 806, 778, 773, 715, 712, 707, 706, 705, 699, 692, 689, 688, 687, 686, 685, 678, 677, 676, 674,
671, 670, 669, 667, 666, 665, 664, 662, 661, 660

Saddam was bribing the international community through the UN, to prevent any action on these many, many, resolutions he was flaunting. Saddam was setting the precedence to bribe your way through the UN, and the corrupt body has yet to do anything serious to reform itself.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040129-4.html

Saddam’s Gifts
Document: Saddam Supporters Received Lucrative Oil Contracts Continued

Russia
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million

France
Bernard Merimee, French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Charles Pasqua, minister of interior: 12 million

Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million

Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million

Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million

Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million

Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million

Spain
Ali Ballout, 8.8 million

Canada
Arthur Millholland, 9.5 million

Bin Laden aided a group of Islamist extremists operating in Kurdistan. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that

the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam

-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995… the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.

-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

On November 4, 1998, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin. The indictment added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”109

-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

10-29-2005, 03:59 AM	#79 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Sheehan's at it again I'm not going to bother repeating myself again, Cing. It's all in the post there. You and I just live on different planets, apparently. __________________

10-29-2005, 11:30 AM	#80 (permalink)
Rincewind Join Date: May 2005 Location: Casting useless spells in Oklahoma. Age: 27 Posts: 2,813	Re: Sheehan's at it again Being against the war in Iraq is not an insult or a slight to the United States. __________________ ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~ No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are. Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

10-29-2005, 06:40 PM	#82 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Sheehan's at it again Maybe that's the source of our head-butting, then. I'm talking global tactics and you're talking boots on the ground. From the soldier's perspective, yeah, we're asking these guys to do the impossible, and they are charging in heads held high and doing a great job. The troops training police officers in basic tactics. The engineers helping to rebuild the infrastructure to give some sense of stability. The lieutenant with a true sense of a Basra neighborhood who leads a squad to track down a terror cell. Yeah, there are lots of good things being done on the ground. But. strategically speaking, I think the powers that be made a mistake in going in. Globally, this has hurt us, and the chances that we'll walk away from this with a clear victory in the end are very slim. That's not meant to insult the people who are doing the actual fighting and dying. They are the only ones capable of turning this around. But I think they are paying a price that they should not have had to pay. __________________

11-04-2005, 11:41 PM	#85 (permalink)
WR7 Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 34	Re: Sheehan's at it again http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/ the war in Iraq= war on terror. This is a list of information on Iraq, You can have your pick, un resolution after resolution, holding Saddam to the cease fire agreement he signed with us, stopping his WMD program after his refusal to cooperate ousted inspectors in 1998, or a terrorism sponsoring dictator, whose foreknowledge of WMD's development and deployment and collaborations with terrorists, coupled with there common hate of America constituted a threat we had every reason to act on. This is a man who brutally pillaged Kuwait, used chemical weapons on entire civilian towns; he also shot missiles at Israel to provoke a regional Arab Jew war. Take all that with the fact that Saddam was within miles of 60% of the world’s oil and you've got yourself a threat. Has Iraq sponsored terrorism? Yes. Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. The State Department has listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism through both Democrat and Republican administrations. http://cfrterrorism.org/sponsors/iraq.html Has Iraq ever used weapons of mass destruction? Yes. In the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, Iraqi troops repeatedly used poison gas, including mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin, against Iranian soldiers, and dropping mustard-gas bombs on Iranian villages. Human Rights Watch reports that Iraq frequently used nerve agents and mustard gas against Iraqi Kurds living in the country’s north. In March 1988, Saddam’s forces killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons. (Warning very graphic) http://www.firethistime.org/halabjavictims.jpg http://www.iraqdigest.com/Halabja-.jpg Coalition troops destroyed at least three terrorist training camps, and soldiers of the 7th Marine Regiment destroyed a suspected terrorist camp early Sunday en route to Baghdad. It featured a passenger-jet fuselage where numerous Iraqi defectors reported that foreign terrorists were instructed how to hijack airliners with utensils. http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp Saddam Hussein paid bonuses of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, formerly the director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan, fled to Iraq after being injured as the Taliban fell. His safe place to fall back to was Iraq, not Iran or Syria, Iraq, were he stayed and remains. Saddam’s forces killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilian Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons, men women and children littered the streets dead were they stood when the bombs fell. http://www.barzan.com/hal66.jpg http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect5.html Even in the absence if actual WMDs, those who combed through the remains of Saddam’s regime in Iraq have already turned up incontrovertible evidence of intent. Dr. David Kay, the chief arms investigator, reported results to congress, he found: 1.) A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment for continuing chemical and Biological weapons research. 2.) A prison complex used in human testing of BW agents, Iraqi officials were explicitly ordered not to report to the UN. 3.) New research on BW-applicable agents, Burcella and Congo Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin, which were not declared to the UN and done in secret. 4.) Documents and equipment, hidden in scientist’s homes that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation. 5.) Reference strains used to produce biological weapons concealed in a scientist’s home 6.) A line of UAV’s undeclared and that tested way out of range, with weapons delivering abilities. 8.) Plans and designs for long range missilery with ranges of up to 1000 km, well beyond the imposed UN limits 9.) Clandestine attempts at obtaining long range missilery from the N. Korean’s. Any way you slice it, there’s no denying Saddam’s intent- not only to develop prohibited weaponry, but to destroy all traces of any weapon. “In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts” Dr. Kay told Congress, “We have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documents and computers evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affair..._10022003.html UN Security Council resolutions on Iraq, threatening war, now just imagine this in our own terms, would you be ok with a murderer getting a slap on the wrist and a reprimand this many times to run free in the community. 1490, 1483, 1476, 1472, 1454, 1443, 1441, 1409, 1382, 1360, 1352, 1330, 1302, 1293, 1284, 1281, 1280, 1275, 1266, 1242, 1210, 1205, 1194, 1175, 1158, 1154, 1153, 1143, 1137, 1134, 1129, 1115, 1111, 1060, 1051, 986, 949, 899, 806, 778, 773, 715, 712, 707, 706, 705, 699, 692, 689, 688, 687, 686, 685, 678, 677, 676, 674, 671, 670, 669, 667, 666, 665, 664, 662, 661, 660 Saddam was bribing the international community through the UN, to prevent any action on these many, many, resolutions he was flaunting. Saddam was setting the precedence to bribe your way through the UN, and the corrupt body has yet to do anything serious to reform itself. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040129-4.html Saddam’s Gifts Document: Saddam Supporters Received Lucrative Oil Contracts Continued Russia Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million France Bernard Merimee, French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million Charles Pasqua, minister of interior: 12 million Palestinian Territories The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million Libya Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million Syria Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million Turkey Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million Indonesia Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million Spain Ali Ballout, 8.8 million Canada Arthur Millholland, 9.5 million Bin Laden aided a group of Islamist extremists operating in Kurdistan. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam -911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04 With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995… the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections. -911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04 On November 4, 1998, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin. The indictment added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”109 -911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

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