Steeler

The problem is, not every detainee is a captured soldier.

Also, I believe that the rights described in the Constitution are inalienable human rights. In other words, they apply to all people, not just citizens of the US. We conveniently ignore that quite frequently, at our own peril.

But this is turning serious. I want to hear more about lions.

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Rincewind

I watched the Lion King. No Iraqi's were eaten though, so I think they're lying.

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Xink

Lol

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Vinzalf

Maybe they did a modified Schrodinger's cat trick and told them:

Theres a Living Lion in this soundproof, opaque box right next to you.

The Lion is asleep by means of sedation, and will remain so unless you disturb it.

The box will not contain the lion should he awaken.

We havent fed the creature in a week.



Muahaha

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Wintermute

You can't have it both ways. Either they are soldiers, in which case they should be treated decently under the geneva convention, or they are "unlawfull combatants" in which case they should be subject to some form of justice i.e. a presumption of innocence until guilt is proven, being told what they are being charged with, a fair trial etc.

The insurgents are killing for what they believe in. So are our soldiers. If we are killing because we believe in freedom, democracy and fairness then we should practise what we preach.

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Wintermute

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Mateo

I thought we were fighting for the Empire!

Rincewind

I am. It's just that my Sturm Truppen armor is at the cleaners. As soon as I get it back, imma grab my blaster rifle and head back to the fray. Oh, with my lion.

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leejo

Right of course these people who are trying to destroy our civilization are entitled to all the nicities of that civilization.

Personally, I say they either get a uniform or a bullet. We'll dance around this for another couple of years and then something really bad will happen in Europe and all this bs will be over.

Steeler

Once again, you are assuming that all detainees are "these people who are trying to destroy our civilization." Presumption of guilt. Many prisoners in Iraq were gathered up in home searches or turned in by neighbors - not picked off the battlefield. How many held without trial in inhumane conditions have since been released? How many of them who were on the fence about the US now die-hard insurgents (or sympathizers) as a result of their imprisonment? How can we establish trust in an American-style democracy if we use the same tactics as the last despot in founding that democracy?

Indiscriminate torture of random brown people is not going to prevent that eternal war end game you fear. In fact, it's likely to exacerbate the problem.

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CingularDuality

I just want to know where the tigers and bears were in this whole torture incident...

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leejo

Damn! Well thanks for straightening that out for me.

I trust you exercize the same intellectual reserve in declining to pass judgment on detainees as you do in declining to pass judgment on soldiers or administration officials when these torture allegations come up.

Steeler

Actually, I do (I think). But your point is taken. Still, it would be nice to see the Pentagon making a concerted effort to address the problem publicly, rather than covering their own behinds so much. That makes everyone suspicious.


S'up, girlfriend?

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Vegas

It boils down to this. If you are trying to survive a war where you start out trying to fight honorably, and you’re enemy is fully allowed to fight dishonorably. Then even with superior numbers and technology, you’ll still lose.

How can you expect to win a war fighting a dishonorable enemy, when you’re relegated to a set of restrictive rules, and your enemy is not?

Obviously if you on the side that’s relegated to rules, (no forms of torture, presumption of innocence even after you watch friends die from innocent looking people driving bombs into them), then the situation for you is near hopeless. Sometimes ultimate morality trumps laws and conventions. It seems that sometimes, our troops are forced down closer to the insurgent’s level.

I’m not sure why people insist to choose the presumption of innocence among people that make stories up to make the military look worse. I’m not sure why, the person who obviously lies, and attempts to cheat, is the one regarded as the innocent victim. While our friends, neighbors and countrymen who live amongst us, and are raised in the same towns and cities in which we live and volunteer to selflessly defend our country, are the ones regarded as wrong and dishonorable.


but i could be wrong...

Vinzalf

It's one of the biggest issues out there. Honestly, I don't think humanity as a whole is ready for the politically correctness that we try to impose on our soldiers.

The enemy realizes this, as well as embraces the fact that they do not have the willpower or nerves required to do so.

Some people can accomplish this, but all it takes is one to mess up and it is a waste. In general Terms, I think the ideaology of our enemy, is more accurately reflecting the ideaology of humanity. Hopefully in time that will change, but right now we're stuck in an uncomfortable grey area.

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I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

CingularDuality

Steeler rocks:

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