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Old 12-13-2005, 05:39 PM   #61 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

... the topic presented in the first post. The merits and flaws of this piece of spam mail. I believe Delta originally pointed out the flaws in this section:
Quote:
g. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President! Bush
has ... crushed the Taliban,
The Taliban is resurgent in Afghanistan and are starting to adopt techniques used by the Iraqi insurgents. So on that count I think we may have caused more problems for ourselves.

Quote:
crippled al-Qaida,
Osama's been quiet, but we still haven't found him, and there are many more carrying the Al Qaeda banner now.

Quote:
put nuclear inspectors in Libya,
I think that this had more to do with Libya's desire to get out from under UN sanctions (they renounced nukes just after taking responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing in September '03). But if the President wants this on his scorecard, fine. He can have it since it happened on his watch.

Quote:
Iran,
Iran has been playing cat and mouse with the US and Europe over nukes for a long time, and the recent bluster has been that they don't have a weapons program NOW, but they have the right to it in the future. The point is of course moot, since there's not much we can do to stop them, and we're likely to see a much more regionally secure and independent Iran if the Iranian-backed Shiite Iraqis take a firm hold in this week's elections. Overall, Iran will likely come out on top when we finally leave Iraq.

Quote:
and North Korea
Um, no.

Quote:
without firing a shot...
Technically speaking, if you had to invade a country to do something, you had to fire some shots to do it. So in the strictest literal sense, this is an asinine statement.

Quote:
and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.
Yes yes, we all know that Saddam was a murderous thug. Thank you, anonymous spam writer, for reminding us of this widely agreed-upon fact. Opposing the WAY THE WAR HAS BEEN CONDUCTED is not the same as opposing THE MORAL GOAL OF THE WAR. Even if the moral goal was a little hazy to begin with.

I invite any elders who may disagree with me to refute these arguments.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:56 PM   #62 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

Only a fool would wade into that debate. Here's why:

1) no-one will become more informed or swayed by anything anyone can say at this point
2) no-one knows what the outcome of this conflict will be. History will tell us that.
3) the President was re-elected and will be in charge for another 3 years. The opposition of which you speak is just bitching at this point.

It's just so boring.
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:51 PM   #63 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

Going home? Don't forget your ball...
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:00 PM   #64 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

Roger that, little guy.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:55 PM   #65 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

*sucks thumb* I wanna be juss wike weejo when I gwo up
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:34 PM   #66 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

Well here's a tip:

Don't make little sucky sounds or funny voices, even in writing, ever. Don't resort to sarcasm when you are being out-thought and out-argued. Instead, stick to your guns, make your point as clearly and succintly as you can, then shut up, and listen. Then think.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:40 PM   #67 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

What about thinking before you speak?

I always think after, but I try to think before too.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:42 PM   #68 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

It's sort of a cyclical thing, but kudos for raising an excellent point in such a clear and succint manner. Wise beyond your years.
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:04 PM   #69 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

heh, thanks. You seem that way too sometimes.

Back to 'Work' now. Hafta keep those planes in the air!
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:36 AM   #70 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

This thread needs a band-aid.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:29 AM   #71 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

While the war against Germany was justified and safed the world from a sick ideology and prevented even further crimes against humanity, the war against Iraq does not seem to have such justification. The WMDs never existed, the evidence was tampered with and distorted. The plan for attacking and holding Iraq was and is flawed. It seems the administration had some half-baked dreams of control over oil and dreams of pulling the middle east under the cover of american control. Everything backfired in the most awful way.

The republicans declared victory and 'mission accomplished' and things only went further downhill. There is no success here - just a huge failure.

The republicans tried to make it seem as if the Iraq war has something to do with some 'war' against terror. The guys in the administration that were advocating the war had never been in one. Veterans were warning against a war and against the Rumsfeld plan. But the republicans prevailed and now the next administration will be forced to pick up the pieces.

Bin Laden has and had nothing to do with Iraq.
Bush invaded two countries (Iraq & Afghanistan) to catch Bin Laden and has still not caught him.

IMO Iraq is still not taken. No foreigner can move freely in this country. The reps maybe thought it would be easier to invade a country than to steal an election but it turned out wrong.

I would also disagree with you on your opinion on people under 21 getting their opinions from liberal proffessors etc - how do you know that? I guess most people get their opinions from the Fox network or from Howard Stern or the big fat idiot (Limbaugh). You grew up in a society that rarely looks beyond it's borders and is very self-centered.

The occupation of Iraq is breeding new terrorists at an alarming rate. If your country was occupied by guys claiming you had WMDs and can't find any, you would fight them too - you would be a freedom fighter then.


As to terrorist attacks: no one can prove that the security efforts after 9/11 prevented anything. It would have been very easy to blow up hundreds of people in the 'security' lines in the airports. And taking our nail files away (but not the laptops) certainly prevented many attacks
But look at the other side. Every day 3000 people die from traffic accidents, 8000 people die from air pollution. [okay I don't know if this is US or world] The emergency response in the US is abysmal, parts of the country are not distinguishable from some family run colony in the third world. Why are billions available for some questionable WMD hunt when the real bad guys (north korea -- no oil) are openly building WMDs (nuclear weapons) while starving their population? And yet the 'war on traffic' or the 'war on air pollution' is not happening! Of course - the people that died in the world trade center are much more important than traffic victims. You can make a lot of money by not investing into clean air. The rich neighborhoods are not downwind from the smokestacks.


Well, I am waiting for the attack on north korea. I am waiting for more wars on cars, traffic, disease and air pollution. I would also be interested how the republicans can talk nonstop about freedom while at the same time undermining these same concepts with more and more rigid laws (read 1984?) How they justify giving more and more money to corporations and the super-rich while breeding poverty.

Man, what a rant.
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:10 AM   #72 (permalink)
 
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What Time Life said... 1946...

Article from 1946 from our Media that darkly predicted that the US was losing the Peace in Germany. For as much as things change, they stay the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Magazine
LIFE Magazine: Americans Are Losing the Victory in Europe

January 7, 1946


We are in a cabin deep down below decks on a Navy ship jam-packed with troops that’s pitching and creaking its way across the Atlantic in a winter gale. There is a man in every bunk. There’s a man wedged into every corner. There’s a man in every chair. The air is dense with cigarette smoke and with the staleness of packed troops and sour wool.

“Don’t think I’m sticking up for the Germans,” puts in the lanky young captain in the upper berth, “but…”

“To hell with the Germans,” says the broad-shouldered dark lieutenant. “It’s what our boys have been doing that worries me.”

The lieutenant has been talking about the traffic in Army property, the leaking of gasoline into the black market in France and Belgium even while the fighting was going on, the way the Army kicks the civilians around, the looting.

“Lust, liquor and loot are the soldier’s pay,” interrupts a red-faced major.

The lieutenant comes out with his conclusion: “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” You hear these two phrases again and again in about every bull session on the shop. “Two wrongs don’t make a right” and “Don’t think I’m sticking up for the Germans, but….”

The troops returning home are worried. “We’ve lost the peace,” men tell you. “We can’t make it stick.”

A tour of the beaten-up cities of Europe six months after victory is a mighty sobering experience for anyone. Europeans. Friend and foe alike, look you accusingly in the face and tell you how bitterly they are disappointed in you as an American. They cite the evolution of the word “liberation.” Before the Normandy landings it meant to be freed from the tyranny of the Nazis. Now it stands in the minds of the civilians for one thing, looting.

You try to explain to these Europeans that they expected too much. They answer that they had a right to, that after the last war America was the hope of the world. They talk about the Hoover relief, the work of the Quakers, the speeches of Woodrow Wilson. They don’t blame us for the fading of that hope. But they blame us now.

Never has American prestige in Europe been lower. People never tire of telling you of the ignorance and rowdy-ism of American troops, of out misunderstanding of European conditions. They say that the theft and sale of Army supplies by our troops is the basis of their black market. They blame us for the corruption and disorganization of UNRRA. They blame us for the fumbling timidity of our negotiations with the Soviet Union. They tell us that our mechanical de-nazification policy in Germany is producing results opposite to those we planned. “Have you no statesmen in America?” they ask.


The Skeptical French Press

Yet whenever we show a trace of positive leadership I found Europeans quite willing to follow our lead. The evening before Robert Jackson’s opening of the case for the prosecution in the Nurnberg trial, I talked to some correspondents from the French newspapers. They were polite but skeptical. They were willing enough to take part in a highly publicized act of vengeance against the enemy, but when you talked about the usefulness of writing a prohibition of aggressive war into the law of nations they laughed in your face. The night after Jackson’s nobly delivered and nobly worded speech I saw then all again. They were very much impressed. Their manner had even changed toward me personally as an American. Their sudden enthusiasm seemed to me typical of the almost neurotic craving for leadership of the European people struggling wearily for existence in the wintry ruins of their world.

The ruin this war has left in Europe can hardly be exaggerated. I can remember the years after the last war. Then, as soon as you got away from the military, all the little strands and pulleys that form the fabric of a society were still knitted together. Farmers took their crops to market. Money was a valid medium of exchange. Now the entire fabric of a million little routines has broken down. No on can think beyond food for today. Money is worthless. Cigarettes are used as a kind of lunatic travesty on a currency. If a man goes out to work he shops around to find the business that serves the best hot meal. The final pay-off is the situation reported from the Ruhr where the miners are fed at the pits so that they will not be able to take the food home to their families.

“Well, the Germans are to blame. Let them pay for it. It’s their fault,” you say. The trouble is that starving the Germans and throwing them out of their homes is only producing more areas of famine and collapse.

One section of the population of Europe looked to us for salvation and another looked to the Soviet Union. Wherever the people have endured either the American armies or the Russian armies both hopes have been bitterly disappointed. The British have won a slightly better reputation. The state of mind in Vienna is interesting because there the part of the population that was not actively Nazi was about equally divided. The wealthier classes looked to America, the workers to the Soviet Union.

The Russians came first. The Viennese tell you of the savagery of the Russian armies. They came like the ancient Mongol hordes out of the steppes, with the flimsiest supply. The people in the working-class districts had felt that when the Russians came that they at least would be spared. But not at all. In the working-class districts the tropes were allowed to rape and murder and loot at will. When victims complained, the Russians answered, “You are too well off to be workers. You are bourgeoisie.”

When Americans looted they took cameras and valuables but when the Russians looted they took everything. And they raped and killed. From the eastern frontiers a tide of refugees is seeping across Europe bringing a nightmare tale of helpless populations trampled underfoot. When the British and American came the Viennese felt that at last they were in the hands of civilized people. But instead of coming in with a bold plan of relief and reconstruction we came in full of evasions and apologies.

U.S. Administration a Poor Third

We know now the tragic results of the ineptitudes of the Peace of Versailles. The European system it set up was Utopia compared to the present tangle of snarling misery. The Russians at least are carrying out a logical plan for extending their system of control at whatever cost. The British show signs of recovering their good sense and their innate human decency. All we have brought to Europe so far is confusion backed up by a drumhead regime of military courts. We have swept away Hitlerism, but a great many Europeans feel that the cure has been worse than the disease.

The taste of victory had gone sour in the mouth of every thoughtful American I met. Thoughtful men can’t help remembering that this is a period in history when every political crime and every frivolous mistake in statesmanship has been paid for by the death of innocent people. The Germans built the Stalags; the Nazis are behind barbed wire now, but who will be next? Whenever you sit eating a good meal in the midst of a starving city in a handsome house requisitioned from some German, you find yourself wondering how it would feel to have a conqueror drinking out of your glasses. When you hear the tales of the brutalizing of women from the eastern frontier you think with a shudder of of those you love and cherish at home.

That we are one world is unfortunately a brutal truth. Punishing the German people indiscriminately for the sins of their leader may be justice, but it is not helping to restore the rule of civilization. The terrible lesson of the events of this year of victory is that what is happening to the bulk of Europe today can happen to American tomorrow.

In America we are still rich, we are still free to move from place to place and to talk to our friends without fear of the secret police. The time has come, for our own future security, to give the best we have to the world instead of the worst. So far as Europe is concerned, American leadership up to now has been obsessed with a fear of our own virtues. Winston Churchill expressed this state of mind brilliantly in a speech to his own people which applies even more accurately to the people of the U.S. “You must be prepared,” he warned them, “for further efforts of mind and body and further sacrifices to great causes, if you are not to fall back into the rut if inertia, the confusion of aim and the craven fear of being great.”


Getting Déjà Vu yet? Here's more from this issue of LIFE...

The first winter of peace holds Europe in a deathly grip of cold, hunger and hopelessness. In the words of the London Sunday Observer: “Europe is threatened by a catastrophe this winter which has no precedent since the Black Death of 1348.”

These are still more than 25,000,000 homeless people milling about Europe. In Warsaw nearly 1,000,000 live in holes in the ground. Six million building were destroyed in Russia. Rumania has her worst drought of 50 years, and in Greece fuel supplies are terribly low because the Nazis, during their occupation, decimated the forests. In Italy the wheat harvest, which was a meager 3,450,000 tons in 1944, fell to an unendurable 1,304,000 tons in 1945. In France, food consumption per day averages 1,800 calories as compared with 3,000 calories in the U.S.

Germany is sinking even below the level of the countries she victimized. The German people are still better clothed than most of Europe because during the war they took the best of Europe’s clothing. But their food supply is below subsistence level. In the American zone they beg for the privilege of scraping U.S. army garbage cans. Infant mortality is already so high that a Berlin Quaker, quoted in the British press, predicted. “No child born in Germany in 1945 will survive. Only half the children aged less than 3 years will survive.”

On Germany, which plunged the Continent into its misery, falls the blame for its own plight and the plight of all Europe. But if this winter proves worse even than the war years, blame will fall on the victor nations. Some Europeans blame Russia for callousness to misery in eastern Europe. But some also blame America because they expected so much more from her. On the following pages the distinguished novelist John Dos Passos, who has been abroad as LIFE correspondent, reports on Europe’s suffering and what it means for America.
Let History judge whether it was right or wrong. But while we are there, let's do what it takes to win.

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Old 12-14-2005, 03:55 AM   #73 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marstein
While the war against Germany was justified and safed the world from a sick ideology and prevented even further crimes against humanity, the war against Iraq does not seem to have such justification. The WMDs never existed, the evidence was tampered with and distorted. The plan for attacking and holding Iraq was and is flawed. It seems the administration had some half-baked dreams of control over oil and dreams of pulling the middle east under the cover of american control. Everything backfired in the most awful way.

The republicans declared victory and 'mission accomplished' and things only went further downhill. There is no success here - just a huge failure.

The republicans tried to make it seem as if the Iraq war has something to do with some 'war' against terror. The guys in the administration that were advocating the war had never been in one. Veterans were warning against a war and against the Rumsfeld plan. But the republicans prevailed and now the next administration will be forced to pick up the pieces.

Bin Laden has and had nothing to do with Iraq.
Bush invaded two countries (Iraq & Afghanistan) to catch Bin Laden and has still not caught him.

IMO Iraq is still not taken. No foreigner can move freely in this country. The reps maybe thought it would be easier to invade a country than to steal an election but it turned out wrong.

I would also disagree with you on your opinion on people under 21 getting their opinions from liberal proffessors etc - how do you know that? I guess most people get their opinions from the Fox network or from Howard Stern or the big fat idiot (Limbaugh). You grew up in a society that rarely looks beyond it's borders and is very self-centered.

The occupation of Iraq is breeding new terrorists at an alarming rate. If your country was occupied by guys claiming you had WMDs and can't find any, you would fight them too - you would be a freedom fighter then.


As to terrorist attacks: no one can prove that the security efforts after 9/11 prevented anything. It would have been very easy to blow up hundreds of people in the 'security' lines in the airports. And taking our nail files away (but not the laptops) certainly prevented many attacks
But look at the other side. Every day 3000 people die from traffic accidents, 8000 people die from air pollution. [okay I don't know if this is US or world] The emergency response in the US is abysmal, parts of the country are not distinguishable from some family run colony in the third world. Why are billions available for some questionable WMD hunt when the real bad guys (north korea -- no oil) are openly building WMDs (nuclear weapons) while starving their population? And yet the 'war on traffic' or the 'war on air pollution' is not happening! Of course - the people that died in the world trade center are much more important than traffic victims. You can make a lot of money by not investing into clean air. The rich neighborhoods are not downwind from the smokestacks.


Well, I am waiting for the attack on north korea. I am waiting for more wars on cars, traffic, disease and air pollution. I would also be interested how the republicans can talk nonstop about freedom while at the same time undermining these same concepts with more and more rigid laws (read 1984?) How they justify giving more and more money to corporations and the super-rich while breeding poverty.

Man, what a rant.
Zing!
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:36 AM   #74 (permalink)
 
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Re: What John Glenn said...

The Sadest part about this whole thread is it took on the whole aspect of a "election debate". It hasn't been about ideas, enlightenment, or even trying to understand where the other person is coming from. It has been about discounting others by discrediting character or experience. "Facts" have been given out of context and in context with no sense of rhyme or reason. I was hoping to get maybe little bit of knowledge or a better understanding of the issues. But all there was to see was a bunch of mud everywhere.

There have been 3 posts or so that have actually debated ideas in this 5 page thread. There has been a lot of people that don't read what has been written. Heck, I don't even know why I should add my 2 cents but I thought I would.

BTW so you don't have to look it up. I am 26 and am current in a Master's Program and one of the most Conservative Universities in the Nation (BYU). I am not brainwashed, in fact, I disagree with a number of my professors.

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