Bye Bye Tookie - Page 3

Wintermute · 12-13-2005, 07:01 PM

Guilty or not the death penalty is wrong. Execution is also a waste of public money when life incarceration is cheaper.

There is something wrong when pro-lifers (who I do have some sympathy for) are trying to remove women's right to chose their own fate on the same day that the rest of the country is baying for blood, vengence and execution.

"wont someone think of the victim?"
Is an eye for an eye going to bring the victim back? Give a life sentance then forget about the killer and move on with your own lives.

Steel_Penguin · 12-13-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

Guilty or not the death penalty is wrong. Execution is also a waste of public money when life incarceration is cheaper.

There is something wrong when pro-lifers (who I do have some sympathy for) are trying to remove women's right to chose their own fate on the same day that the rest of the country is baying for blood, vengence and execution.

"wont someone think of the victim?"
Is an eye for an eye going to bring the victim back? Give a life sentance then forget about the killer and move on with your own lives.

Well put. It amazes me that the same people who cry that abortion is a bloodbath support the killing of grown human beings.

**Vinzalf** · 12-13-2005, 07:08 PM

I visited a torture museum in Heidelburg, Germany when I visited a few years back. Learned alot of stuff about what they did back a few hundred years ago, if even. Some of them, you can't help but know its effective just by knowing about them.

The really sad thing to me is the length of time required to pass before the sentence is carried out.

I know its mostly about the appeals and whatnot, but still, it's begging for groups to rally and protest the government about it.

The wait, to me, is barbaric.

Steel_Penguin · 12-13-2005, 07:12 PM

True. If i were going to be executed i'd rather get it over with than have to mull over it for 20 odd years.

slugslinger · 12-13-2005, 07:24 PM

Crips out number Bloods 3-1

Steel_Penguin · 12-13-2005, 07:25 PM

And that is relevant why?

Buck Fush · 12-13-2005, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

.... Execution is also a waste of public money when life incarceration is cheaper.....

I can't see how this could be possible without cooking the numbers. Can you post some references?

slugslinger · 12-13-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

I can't see how this could be possible without cooking the numbers. Can you post some references?

the state has to prvide for that person for the rest of his like if they were to keep him alive

James315 · 12-13-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

I can't see how this could be possible without cooking the numbers. Can you post some references?

Apparently it has to do with the amount of legal expenses associated with the execution. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel Penguin

It amazes me that the same people who cry that abortion is a bloodbath support the killing of grown human beings.

I've heard people on the other side express equal amazement that the same people who oppose the death penalty for murderers have no problem killing innocent babies.

But those are really two separate issues. The death penalty debate is about whether the ultimate crime requires the ultimate penalty. The abortion debate is about whether life begins at conception, birth, or some point between the two. The official Republican party line is in favor of the death penalty and against abortion, and the Democratic party the opposite. But many people mix and match positions on these since they're really about two different things.

JMJ · 12-13-2005, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

I can't see how this could be possible without cooking the numbers. Can you post some references?

It has to do with the legal cost of appeal after appeal after appeal. The cost of some poison to kill the scum is nothing. If we'd only let them appeal once it'd be pretty damn cheap to do away with them.

**leejo** · 12-13-2005, 08:06 PM

Abortion is ending an innocent and defenseless life.

The death penalty is a sentence legislated for certain crimes, and is executed after a person has been convicted of committing that crime without mitigating circumstances and in fact often with aggravating circumstances.

How can one oppose one and support the other? A sincere wish to protect the innocent and punish the guilty helps.

Diceman · 12-13-2005, 08:11 PM

Here's what I found with a quick search on "cost of death penalty":

http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html
http://www.fadp.org/ (scroll down to "High Cost of Death Penalty")
http://www.cuadp.org/facts.html
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...%20Las%20Vegas
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/tabor080405.htm
http://www.independent-media.tv/item...dent%20Writing

Going by only what these sources say, the cost appears to be dominantly associated with the trials and not the appeal process.

The numbers, which appear to have consensus across these sources, indicate that it costs ~$750,000 to $900,000 for 40 years life imprisonment in a single cell, versus $3.0 million to $3.2 million for the death penalty. One article indicates that NY state would need to budget $118 million annually to implement the death penalty. An investigation by Florida's Palm Beach Post of 44 executions indicated that they cost $24 million a piece, costing the state $1 billion above and beyond what it would have cost to imprison the convicts for life.

The elevated cost seems to be due to the elevated requirements of due process in the initial trials (one for guilt determination, one for sentence), because of the irreversibility of the punishment. I couldn't find any easily accessible numbers on the appeal process, but I did read references which said that the appeals portion wasn't the dominant share of the cost.

Dice.

**leejo** · 12-13-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diceman

The numbers, which appear to have consensus across these sources, indicate that it costs ~$750,000 to $900,000 for 40 years life imprisonment in a single cell, versus $3.0 million to $3.2 million for the death penalty.

So it's only going to cost at worst $2.4 million over at least 10 years to execute that champion jerk John Couey, who kidnapped poor 9-year old Jessica Lunsford, raped her, and buried her alive, kindly giving her favorite stuffed dolphin to hold while he placed her inside garbage bags and shoveled on the dirt?

Deal. Happy to pitch in. Why make the money if you can't enjoy spending it?

On the other hand, if he wrote some children's books and spoke out against pedophilia...well then I suppose I'd just have to say he was reformed! The system works, alleluia!

Diceman · 12-13-2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

So it's only going to cost at worst $2.4 million over at least 10 years to execute that champion jerk John Couey, who kidnapped poor 9-year old Jessica Lunsford, raped her, and buried her alive, kindly giving her favorite stuffed dolphin to hold while he placed her inside garbage bags and shoveled on the dirt?

Deal. Happy to pitch in. Why make the money if you can't enjoy spending it?

On the other hand, if he wrote some children's books and spoke out against pedophilia...well then I suppose I'd just have to say he was reformed! The system works, allelujia!

Just laying out the numbers, since there seemed to be some interest in them.

The sources indicate that it is an upfront cost, not evenly distributed over 10+ years.

Dice.

Pickle · 12-13-2005, 08:43 PM

The reason the death penalty is not a deterrent today is because of how it is carried out.

Time/Lack of enforcement
27 years between the commission of the crime and the culmination of the punishment that was handed down is too long. Put a max cap of 3-5 years on the appeals process and then carry out the sentence. If my child was to break a rule that required me to punish him and I tell him as much, what good is it going to do if I carry out the punishment 25 years later? So much time is going to go by that he figures the day of reconing will never come. So the crime/rule was committed but the punishment seemingly never came.

Process
The death penalty has become such a private affair that it is too far removed from society for it to be an effective deterrent. They should be hanged in the middle of the town square. Barbaric?.......yes. More effective?.......I think so.

Perception
All of this talk about the death penalty being racist is a bunch of crap. We are talking about a black man who killed a white guy and three Asians. Where were these same people calling it racist when a white guy was executed? I have experience in corrections/LE and it just pisses the corrections officers off to hear these charges because it is not true. These are the same type of people that claim the New Orleans levies were destroyed by the government.

Small Scope
The death penalty is not applicable to enough crimes. Rape and child molestation should be added to the list.

I can’t agree that we should not enforce the law to its fullest extent because of money. That is a defeatist attitude that weakens the moral fiber of our society. If people will say, “I don’t care how much money it takes to find me innocent” I think we can say, “I don’t care how much money it takes to carry out the punishment that has been declared upon you.” One of the reasons that it costs to much is because it takes such an inordinate amount of time to carry out the sentence. If this issue were resolved the money argument would go away.

12-13-2005, 07:01 PM	#31 (permalink)
Wintermute Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Age: 24 Posts: 1,166	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Guilty or not the death penalty is wrong. Execution is also a waste of public money when life incarceration is cheaper. There is something wrong when pro-lifers (who I do have some sympathy for) are trying to remove women's right to chose their own fate on the same day that the rest of the country is baying for blood, vengence and execution. "wont someone think of the victim?" Is an eye for an eye going to bring the victim back? Give a life sentance then forget about the killer and move on with your own lives. __________________ Wintermute Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space. www.MakePovertyHistory.com

12-13-2005, 07:08 PM	#33 (permalink)
Vinzalf Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Age: 23 Posts: 1,754	Re: Bye Bye Tookie I visited a torture museum in Heidelburg, Germany when I visited a few years back. Learned alot of stuff about what they did back a few hundred years ago, if even. Some of them, you can't help but know its effective just by knowing about them. The really sad thing to me is the length of time required to pass before the sentence is carried out. I know its mostly about the appeals and whatnot, but still, it's begging for groups to rally and protest the government about it. The wait, to me, is barbaric. __________________ RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!! Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows. I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

12-13-2005, 07:12 PM	#34 (permalink)
Steel_Penguin Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Florida,USA Age: 20 Posts: 1,970	Re: Bye Bye Tookie True. If i were going to be executed i'd rather get it over with than have to mull over it for 20 odd years. __________________ _____________________ ---

12-13-2005, 07:24 PM	#35 (permalink)
slugslinger Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 385	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Crips out number Bloods 3-1 __________________ lTG- 187th MICSlSlugslinger Delta MICS Delta Forces Mobile Infantry & Combat Specilist

12-13-2005, 07:25 PM	#36 (permalink)
Steel_Penguin Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Florida,USA Age: 20 Posts: 1,970	Re: Bye Bye Tookie And that is relevant why? __________________ _____________________ ---

12-13-2005, 08:06 PM	#41 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,656	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Abortion is ending an innocent and defenseless life. The death penalty is a sentence legislated for certain crimes, and is executed after a person has been convicted of committing that crime without mitigating circumstances and in fact often with aggravating circumstances. How can one oppose one and support the other? A sincere wish to protect the innocent and punish the guilty helps.

12-13-2005, 08:11 PM	#42 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 30 Posts: 986	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Here's what I found with a quick search on "cost of death penalty": http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html http://www.fadp.org/ (scroll down to "High Cost of Death Penalty") http://www.cuadp.org/facts.html http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...%20Las%20Vegas http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/tabor080405.htm http://www.independent-media.tv/item...dent%20Writing Going by only what these sources say, the cost appears to be dominantly associated with the trials and not the appeal process. The numbers, which appear to have consensus across these sources, indicate that it costs ~$750,000 to $900,000 for 40 years life imprisonment in a single cell, versus $3.0 million to $3.2 million for the death penalty. One article indicates that NY state would need to budget $118 million annually to implement the death penalty. An investigation by Florida's Palm Beach Post of 44 executions indicated that they cost $24 million a piece, costing the state $1 billion above and beyond what it would have cost to imprison the convicts for life. The elevated cost seems to be due to the elevated requirements of due process in the initial trials (one for guilt determination, one for sentence), because of the irreversibility of the punishment. I couldn't find any easily accessible numbers on the appeal process, but I did read references which said that the appeals portion wasn't the dominant share of the cost. Dice. __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

12-13-2005, 08:43 PM	#45 (permalink)
Pickle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Land of Fruit and Nuts! Age: 35 Posts: 1,281	Re: Bye Bye Tookie The reason the death penalty is not a deterrent today is because of how it is carried out. Time/Lack of enforcement 27 years between the commission of the crime and the culmination of the punishment that was handed down is too long. Put a max cap of 3-5 years on the appeals process and then carry out the sentence. If my child was to break a rule that required me to punish him and I tell him as much, what good is it going to do if I carry out the punishment 25 years later? So much time is going to go by that he figures the day of reconing will never come. So the crime/rule was committed but the punishment seemingly never came. Process The death penalty has become such a private affair that it is too far removed from society for it to be an effective deterrent. They should be hanged in the middle of the town square. Barbaric?.......yes. More effective?.......I think so. Perception All of this talk about the death penalty being racist is a bunch of crap. We are talking about a black man who killed a white guy and three Asians. Where were these same people calling it racist when a white guy was executed? I have experience in corrections/LE and it just pisses the corrections officers off to hear these charges because it is not true. These are the same type of people that claim the New Orleans levies were destroyed by the government. Small Scope The death penalty is not applicable to enough crimes. Rape and child molestation should be added to the list. I can’t agree that we should not enforce the law to its fullest extent because of money. That is a defeatist attitude that weakens the moral fiber of our society. If people will say, “I don’t care how much money it takes to find me innocent” I think we can say, “I don’t care how much money it takes to carry out the punishment that has been declared upon you.” One of the reasons that it costs to much is because it takes such an inordinate amount of time to carry out the sentence. If this issue were resolved the money argument would go away. __________________ "Umm Deputy these aren't my pants" - Common alarm cry of the North American Crackhead [tg-c1][ma-c1][defense]

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