Bye Bye Tookie - Page 6

Diceman · 12-21-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

its like if the jews got to gether becuase hitler was killed..."he was just mis-understood"

Can you expand that thought a little bit, please? That idea strikes me as pure hyperbole.

**Trooper** · 12-21-2005, 04:21 PM

i dint mean anything by that i was just trying to make the same basic claim that these people are doing with Tookie..

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 12-24-2005, 12:49 AM

The problem with the death penalty.

In some cases it is cold, calculated murder based on individual greed and or laziness.

Shouldn't this be stopped?

I will admit that in some cases, maybe even "Tookies" case, it is factualy known that the person did the horrible crimes accused of. (I don't know the facts of this particular one so won't commit one way or the other.)

So be it.

This is one case out of thousands. For these people to suffer the punishment of death means there must be a law that allows it. This law must be applicibale to all.

This means anybody can be executed.

Now we come to the fact that thousands of murders happen in this country every year. The facts and circumstanses of these crimes are as varied as can be imagined. Some are justified. Some are for personal gain. And some are simply not understandable by sane people.

Who determines these facts? Who filters out the hyperbole?

As it stands now, the DA's and the cops. The juries assigned and a series of judges.

To digress a bit. How many people thought Irag had WMD's? Just about the whole world. I did. France did as did Germany and America. Hell, I think even Sadam himself did. But we where all wrong.

Ok. Humans are fallible. We make mistakes. Sometimes on a huge scale. But the question isn't about what we do about what we think is truth. The question is about what we think is right.

Is it right to kill an innocent person?

Is it?

If it is then it is ok to support the death penalty.

For those of you that believe we have never executed an innocent person, well, there is no talking with you. You can somehow disregard the fact that not everybody in the decision making process can be trusted. That there are not DA's that try to simply close a case because they are running for governer in two years. Becuase there are not cops that have a gruge against a poor excuse of a human being has gotten off way to many times. Because there are judges that are just in it for the paycheck or esteem. Becuase many in the appeals process do not want to step on the toes of others in their elite circle or are tied by the current interpretation of the law. Because that the media does not distort facts and change minds.

It is when these sad traits of humanity take control that when the "cold calculated murder" that I mentioned in the begining of this post comes into play.

Just for the record, I do not think that killing is always a moral wrong. At times individuals must kill others to survive. We are, at our core, animals that have a survival instinct.

That instinct must be controlled, however, when what we consider to be human can be present. When the situation is controlled and the evil can no longer occur. I believe that many support the death penalty because they do not trust the current system in place. That the truly guilty will get out and once again inflict harm against the ones we love.

That is truth. That will happen.

But is it right to kill an innocent person? Just to make us feel safer? Is the system that could set that insanity upon us so set in stone that possibly killing an innocent person is acceptable?

It isn't. That simple. Change the system to ensure those we know trufully would do us harm are kept from us. But then allow us to do what is right when truth fails us.

**leejo** · 12-24-2005, 11:34 AM

Well, that's your opinion. That's why we vote to sort these things out.

**luna** · 12-26-2005, 12:26 PM

Excellent post, Gringo. I personally struggle with my feelings towards the death penalty. I do believe that a cold, calculating murderer should not be allowed to survive. I also believe that sometimes, murder is justifiable. I am consistently concerned with the idea of innocent people being executed, and sometimes wonder how much better we are if we find it acceptable to murder a murderer.

It's a difficult topic to get your head around sometimes. Thank you for you very insightful post.

12-21-2005, 04:21 PM	#77 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,552	Re: Bye Bye Tookie i dint mean anything by that i was just trying to make the same basic claim that these people are doing with Tookie.. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

12-24-2005, 12:49 AM	#78 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,324	Re: Bye Bye Tookie The problem with the death penalty. In some cases it is cold, calculated murder based on individual greed and or laziness. Shouldn't this be stopped? I will admit that in some cases, maybe even "Tookies" case, it is factualy known that the person did the horrible crimes accused of. (I don't know the facts of this particular one so won't commit one way or the other.) So be it. This is one case out of thousands. For these people to suffer the punishment of death means there must be a law that allows it. This law must be applicibale to all. This means anybody can be executed. Now we come to the fact that thousands of murders happen in this country every year. The facts and circumstanses of these crimes are as varied as can be imagined. Some are justified. Some are for personal gain. And some are simply not understandable by sane people. Who determines these facts? Who filters out the hyperbole? As it stands now, the DA's and the cops. The juries assigned and a series of judges. To digress a bit. How many people thought Irag had WMD's? Just about the whole world. I did. France did as did Germany and America. Hell, I think even Sadam himself did. But we where all wrong. Ok. Humans are fallible. We make mistakes. Sometimes on a huge scale. But the question isn't about what we do about what we think is truth. The question is about what we think is right. Is it right to kill an innocent person? Is it? If it is then it is ok to support the death penalty. For those of you that believe we have never executed an innocent person, well, there is no talking with you. You can somehow disregard the fact that not everybody in the decision making process can be trusted. That there are not DA's that try to simply close a case because they are running for governer in two years. Becuase there are not cops that have a gruge against a poor excuse of a human being has gotten off way to many times. Because there are judges that are just in it for the paycheck or esteem. Becuase many in the appeals process do not want to step on the toes of others in their elite circle or are tied by the current interpretation of the law. Because that the media does not distort facts and change minds. It is when these sad traits of humanity take control that when the "cold calculated murder" that I mentioned in the begining of this post comes into play. Just for the record, I do not think that killing is always a moral wrong. At times individuals must kill others to survive. We are, at our core, animals that have a survival instinct. That instinct must be controlled, however, when what we consider to be human can be present. When the situation is controlled and the evil can no longer occur. I believe that many support the death penalty because they do not trust the current system in place. That the truly guilty will get out and once again inflict harm against the ones we love. That is truth. That will happen. But is it right to kill an innocent person? Just to make us feel safer? Is the system that could set that insanity upon us so set in stone that possibly killing an innocent person is acceptable? It isn't. That simple. Change the system to ensure those we know trufully would do us harm are kept from us. But then allow us to do what is right when truth fails us. Last edited by El_Gringo_Grande; 12-24-2005 at 02:07 AM.

12-24-2005, 11:34 AM	#79 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Well, that's your opinion. That's why we vote to sort these things out.

12-26-2005, 12:26 PM	#80 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,132	Re: Bye Bye Tookie Excellent post, Gringo. I personally struggle with my feelings towards the death penalty. I do believe that a cold, calculating murderer should not be allowed to survive. I also believe that sometimes, murder is justifiable. I am consistently concerned with the idea of innocent people being executed, and sometimes wonder how much better we are if we find it acceptable to murder a murderer. It's a difficult topic to get your head around sometimes. Thank you for you very insightful post. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

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