Papers, please. - Page 3

**leejo** · 01-19-2006, 04:58 PM

It looks questionable to me too, and we shouldn't have to ask our citizens or police to wrangle with these questions, but we do. Mr. UBL was just on the news telling us that there are operations under way to commit mass murder in this country. I take him seriously.

I don't like this stuff, the NSA activities, the young men and women losing limbs and lives - or watching their friends suffer and die, the dead children, the sobbing villagers everywhere. I hate all of it. But it's the hand we've been dealt and we need to get through it together.

Did that cop behave appropriately? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe so. But that woman made the issue about HER instead of about "us", and I don't appreciate that.

Show the damn ID and move on. There are bigger and better fights.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-19-2006, 05:28 PM

There is an "us" (those who insist security answer to privacy) who would claim her as its own.

**leejo** · 01-19-2006, 05:34 PM

Really? You'd rather focus on your right to tell a cop to buzz off than helping them protect us from further terror attacks?

Addict · 01-19-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Really? You'd rather focus on your right to tell a cop to buzz off than helping them protect us from further terror attacks?

You're question reminds me of the New Hampshire motto "Live free or die". Obviously some people place more emphasis on their rights than others.

I think I understand your rationale, that you'd rather give up some of our rights to be safe from terrorists. But how many of our rights? Where does it start, where does it end? If you chip away at the very basic liberties our society fought so hard to set up, that those in the military are fighting so hard to give the Iraqi's a chance to enjoy in some form or fasion, that we have enshrined in the first 10 ammendments to the document that rules our society... well then I believe that our society begins, if ever so subtly, to crumble.

From what you have said, you seem to see this particular event as a (relatively) irrelevant, small, isolated, limited, little issue. Compared to the bigger threat that terrorists pose to people's lives. (or something like that, I obviously am not in your mind and am only interpreting your posts here).

But to me this incedent is about a fundamental right. It is attacking our society at it's very root. It is an example of the degredation of our rights that I fear when I look at the Patriot Act or the NSA survelience. I see it as connected and similer. And I think I am obviously MORE concerned about the effect of some of our nation's recent policy changes on our liberties than you are(I think that is fair to say?). To lay it out more frankly, I *am* willing to potentially risk more lives for our ideals of Liberty.

I want to note that I don't think either of us is extreme, and would like to avoid implying so, such that I don't think you are advocating the total removal of all our rights, and I am not advocating sticking my head in the sand and sacrificing 10,000 innocent lives so that I can not have to show my ID.

Risking being a little inflamatory, I see it as you willing to take away MY rights for OUR security... I think you could make the argument that it is just as fair to see it as me willing to risk YOUR life for OUR rights. Who gets to choose which is right? I suppose we vote, and probably find a middle ground, but I think both sides would benifit by trying to understand the other side and be compasionate about their fears.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-19-2006, 06:45 PM

compassion > sarcasm

Given this age of security compromises and stolen databases, is it a bit idealistic for me to tell myself that this information will only be used, ever, by anyone, to "catch the bad guys."

**leejo** · 01-19-2006, 07:53 PM

Well that's kinda my thinking but with a different conclusion. The information about which people are so concerned is already out there, and in some pretty insecure databases. Marketing firms buy and sell each other's information, and there are businesses that exist solely as central warehouses of personal information that other businesses buy to make smart marketing decisions. If the NSA really wanted to get up in your grill they'd just start a front business, start buying these lists, and put them together.

I don't have a problem with complying with a cop asking me for ID because I understand that to be a reasonable, legal request that is clearly helpful in interdicting moving terrorists. It creates interaction with the security guard. Is he sweating? What is he wearing? Does he make eye contact? Whatever signs might help flush out a would-be bomber.

Maybe this is because I firmly believe that we will begin to see busses and trains exploding in our country before long. When I hear a story about cops on busses I get nervous.

So yes, I would happily show my ID to a security guard or cop on a bus and I'd thank him for doing his job.

Buck Fush · 01-19-2006, 08:21 PM

So I suppose that when this first bus-bomber gets on the bus and is asked for his ID he'll just say, "Doh! You got me."

CHECKING IDS IS NOT A DETERENT TO BUS-BOMBERS. At the most, confronting him for his ID is just going to make him detonate early. You keep making the argument that you'll give up some liberties if it will save some lives, but this crap is not making anyone more secure.

**leejo** · 01-19-2006, 08:41 PM

No but it is a deterrant to people scoping out targets or making dry runs. As I said, the ID-checking is as much an ID check as an opportunity to interact with and observe the passenger.

Buck Fush · 01-19-2006, 10:04 PM

Ok, I can see how that would be helpful. I still don't like what happened, but I get your point.

**leejo** · 01-19-2006, 10:30 PM

I don't like what happened either.

**CingularDuality** · 01-20-2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

Is it right to tell an American citizen that they are not allowed on public transportation with out some form of ID?

You guys fell into the same trap that the media did... This isn't about showing ID to ride a bus, this is about showing ID to access a secure federal facility, an Army base fer crissakes!

**Wyzcrak** · 01-20-2006, 12:37 PM

You've got a 404 link, and we're the one in the trap?

**leejo** · 01-20-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You guys fell into the same trap that the media did... This isn't about showing ID to ride a bus, this is about showing ID to access a secure federal facility, an Army base fer crissakes!

Well, I had actually forgotten all about that. In my mind that hurts this lady's position even more.

**CingularDuality** · 01-20-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

You've got a 404 link, and we're the one in the trap?

How stupid is it to change the names of established web pages?

SmokingTarpan · 01-20-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You guys fell into the same trap that the media did... This isn't about showing ID to ride a bus, this is about showing ID to access a secure federal facility, an Army base fer crissakes!

Where are you getting the army base thing from? It was a former ordinance plant, but as far as I've been able to find, the Denver Federal Center is home to the US Geological Survey and various administrative facilities now.

Even if it was an army base, I still contend that it is not secure. What "secure" facility lets people through who say they have no ID? Perhaps the issue isn't about showing ID to ride a bus, but it certainly isn't about showing ID to enter a secure facility, either. Seems more like an issue with random demands and lax policies made by authorities.

01-19-2006, 04:58 PM	#31 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Papers, please. It looks questionable to me too, and we shouldn't have to ask our citizens or police to wrangle with these questions, but we do. Mr. UBL was just on the news telling us that there are operations under way to commit mass murder in this country. I take him seriously. I don't like this stuff, the NSA activities, the young men and women losing limbs and lives - or watching their friends suffer and die, the dead children, the sobbing villagers everywhere. I hate all of it. But it's the hand we've been dealt and we need to get through it together. Did that cop behave appropriately? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe so. But that woman made the issue about HER instead of about "us", and I don't appreciate that. Show the damn ID and move on. There are bigger and better fights.

01-19-2006, 05:28 PM	#32 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Papers, please. There is an "us" (those who insist security answer to privacy) who would claim her as its own. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

01-19-2006, 05:34 PM	#33 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Papers, please. Really? You'd rather focus on your right to tell a cop to buzz off than helping them protect us from further terror attacks?

01-19-2006, 06:45 PM	#35 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Papers, please. compassion > sarcasm Given this age of security compromises and stolen databases, is it a bit idealistic for me to tell myself that this information will only be used, ever, by anyone, to "catch the bad guys." __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

01-19-2006, 07:53 PM	#36 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Papers, please. Well that's kinda my thinking but with a different conclusion. The information about which people are so concerned is already out there, and in some pretty insecure databases. Marketing firms buy and sell each other's information, and there are businesses that exist solely as central warehouses of personal information that other businesses buy to make smart marketing decisions. If the NSA really wanted to get up in your grill they'd just start a front business, start buying these lists, and put them together. I don't have a problem with complying with a cop asking me for ID because I understand that to be a reasonable, legal request that is clearly helpful in interdicting moving terrorists. It creates interaction with the security guard. Is he sweating? What is he wearing? Does he make eye contact? Whatever signs might help flush out a would-be bomber. Maybe this is because I firmly believe that we will begin to see busses and trains exploding in our country before long. When I hear a story about cops on busses I get nervous. So yes, I would happily show my ID to a security guard or cop on a bus and I'd thank him for doing his job.

01-19-2006, 08:21 PM	#37 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 602	Re: Papers, please. So I suppose that when this first bus-bomber gets on the bus and is asked for his ID he'll just say, "Doh! You got me." CHECKING IDS IS NOT A DETERENT TO BUS-BOMBERS. At the most, confronting him for his ID is just going to make him detonate early. You keep making the argument that you'll give up some liberties if it will save some lives, but this crap is not making anyone more secure.

01-19-2006, 08:41 PM	#38 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Papers, please. No but it is a deterrant to people scoping out targets or making dry runs. As I said, the ID-checking is as much an ID check as an opportunity to interact with and observe the passenger.

01-19-2006, 10:04 PM	#39 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 602	Re: Papers, please. Ok, I can see how that would be helpful. I still don't like what happened, but I get your point.

01-19-2006, 10:30 PM	#40 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Papers, please. I don't like what happened either.

01-20-2006, 12:37 PM	#42 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Papers, please. You've got a 404 link, and we're the one in the trap? __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

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