Papers, please.

**CingularDuality** · 01-18-2006, 02:35 AM

I tire of the NSA spy discussion...

What do you all think about the Deborah Davis case?

The United States dropped the charges against her, but that just means that the underlying issue hasn't been settled.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-18-2006, 03:11 AM

With a photo like that, I'm not sure I'd show my ID, either.

aeroripper · 01-18-2006, 03:55 AM

Communism isn't so bad when you think about it >_>

**Pokerface** · 01-18-2006, 07:53 AM

I'll grant that there are situations where showing certain ID is compulsory. If the authorities had gone through saying "Everyone show us your bus pass because we're conducting a fare audit" or something, I'd have been all for it. But as it's written at the link, a security guard got on a bus and demanded IDs for no specified reason.

I don't know under what authority the guard was acting, nor do I know why he was asking in the first place. That being the case, I'd not be so quick to flash my ID to someone in uniform. You at least deserve to be told why, and you deserve the order to come from someone with the authority to give it.

rs_al · 01-18-2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroripper

Communism isn't so bad when you think about it >_>

Believe it or not, there is a difference between Communism and Totalitarianism.

SmokingTarpan · 01-18-2006, 10:08 AM

This brings to memory an situation that I was involved in several years ago.

I work on a college campus and help run a network of computer labs. One day I was sitting in my office in the back of one of our labs, and as the lab worker came in they messed up the code for the alarm, and the alarm went off. I went out and helped the guy to turn it off, and as usual police showed up about 15min later to make sure everything was okay. He came into the back office where I and several others were sitting at our desks working, and asked if all was well. Since I was the closest, I spoke up and said yea, it's all good. He asked me for ID, which is fairly understandable given the whole alarm thing. But after seeing my ID, he took out a notebook and proceeded to grill me. He wanted my SSN, height, weight, all sorts of stuff, even to know if I had any tattoos or distinguishing marks on my body. He was a bit overbearing, and made it seem like this was absolutely required (I routinely answer alarm calls in the middle of the night, and I've only even been asked for ID one other time). At the time I thought nothing of it and complied, but a short while later I became quite angry; I felt like I was treated as if I had done something wrong. I'm still pissed about that to this day, and have done what I can in the meantime to learn what I'm required to do in a situation versus what an official would like me to do.

This is one of the reasons I worry about things in this country done for "security" purposes. We go from making sure terrorists don't get onto planes with bombs to (basically) rent-a-cops getting an everyday citizen on a bus arrested.

**leejo** · 01-18-2006, 10:10 AM

I think it's good to send security guards onto busses demanding everyone's ID. It makes people who have a problem with that very jumpy. How many Israeli's have died on busses?

I'm also glad the charges have been dropped. Anyone refusing to self-identify should be removed from the crowd and checked thoroughly, but there's no need to push matters beyond that.

Quote:

We go from making sure terrorists don't get onto planes with bombs to (basically) rent-a-cops getting an everyday citizen on a bus arrested.

Right. There are going to be idiots making idiotic decisions and getting aggressive when they should stay cool. But either we demand perfection from each guy who draws the short straw and gets the choice gig of walking onto busses demanding ids, or we accept that these security operations are not happening and our enemies know it. I prefer to deal with the occasional dope in uniform.

Amazingly, these security dopes can be sent away by showing the same ID the best buy clerks demand everytime I use my credit card. Fry's too. Horrors!

**CingularDuality** · 01-18-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

I'll grant that there are situations where showing certain ID is compulsory. If the authorities had gone through saying "Everyone show us your bus pass because we're conducting a fare audit" or something, I'd have been all for it. But as it's written at the link, a security guard got on a bus and demanded IDs for no specified reason.

I don't know under what authority the guard was acting, nor do I know why he was asking in the first place. That being the case, I'd not be so quick to flash my ID to someone in uniform. You at least deserve to be told why, and you deserve the order to come from someone with the authority to give it.

???

Did you read the article?

Ms. Davis was riding a city bus on a route that goes through the Denver Federal Center. As the bus enters the federal facility, the guards check the ID of everyone on board. That's when she refused. The guards said that if she doesn't show ID, then she can't enter the facility. The city bus was going to continue onto the facility, she refused to get off the bus or to show ID. She was arrested by the Federal Protective Service that responded to the scene.

**Pokerface** · 01-18-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

???

Did you read the article?

Ms. Davis was riding a city bus on a route that goes through the Denver Federal Center. As the bus enters the federal facility, the guards check the ID of everyone on board. That's when she refused. The guards said that if she doesn't show ID, then she can't enter the facility. The city bus was going to continue onto the facility, she refused to get off the bus or to show ID. She was arrested by the Federal Protective Service that responded to the scene.

I read the original link; I didn't delve to the rest of the site. My apologies.

The case being what it is, I still think she's in the clear. If the DFC has an issue with city busses like that, it shouldn't let them in. It's one thing to ID folks entering your facility, and quite another to ID folks using public transportation just passing through.

SmokingTarpan · 01-18-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

???

Did you read the article?

Ms. Davis was riding a city bus on a route that goes through the Denver Federal Center. As the bus enters the federal facility, the guards check the ID of everyone on board. That's when she refused. The guards said that if she doesn't show ID, then she can't enter the facility. The city bus was going to continue onto the facility, she refused to get off the bus or to show ID. She was arrested by the Federal Protective Service that responded to the scene.

A bit more clarity to the situation: http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/lo...274023,00.html

Quote:

RTD spokesman Scott Reed said federal guards only check IDs of bus passengers when the Federal Center is on "heightened alert," which may not be known to the general public.

"It's periodic," Reed said.

Quote:

Davis said she showed her ID when a Federal Center guard asked to see it for the first couple of days she rode the RTD bus through the center. But it bothered her.

"It's wrong," she said Monday. "It's not even security. It's just a lesson in compliance - the big guys pushing the little guys around."

For a few subsequent days, she told the guards she wasn't getting off in the Federal Center and didn't have an ID. They let her stay on the bus.

So the guards don't check ID all the time, and they apparently let people through if they fail to have ID. But they don't let people through that refuse to show ID? That's security, for ya.

SmokingTarpan · 01-18-2006, 12:55 PM

Also, an interesting bit about identification law. http://www.cjlf.org/releases/04-22.htm

The case happened in Nevada, but I like this little blurb toward the bottom:

Quote:

Because there is little privacy interest in identity and compliance is easy and routine, Nevada’s identification requirement does not burden an individual to any constitutionally significant degree. The Supreme Court has long held that police cannot randomly stop people on the street and compel them to provide identification. The Nevada law does not contradict this rule since it only applies when an officer has reasonable suspicion that a person has committed or will commit a crime.

Emphasis mine. Granted, the bus that Davis was riding was going through a federal facility, but it was merely passing through. She wasn't visiting the facility itself, and for all intents and purposes was just a random person on the street. Put this together with the fact that the guards do not in fact check ID all the time, and you can see how this begins to look even more wrong.

Addict · 01-18-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I think it's good to send security guards onto busses demanding everyone's ID. It makes people who have a problem with that very jumpy.

This statement concerns me. There is no caveat, no "cirumstances" or anything with your statement. Were you just talking about THIS case, where a bus is entering a federal area? 'cause from your statement without any qualifiers, it seems to follow that you'd support a police officer(and even a private security guard?) being able to, at anytime in any public space (since we were talking about a *public* bus) and without any specific or probable cause, demand IDs. I believe that falls into unreasonable and unwarrented searches. Am I reading you wrong? I'm not really trying to tell you what you said, just the impression that statement made on me.

I liked Cing's summary because it removed the woman's rude actions and the security's (imo) over zealous physical reaction, both of which clouded the issue for me. That helped me see the side of the security guard's that my gut reaction to protect citizen's privacy had obscured. From one point of view, they were entering a federal area, and when security is heightened anyone who has an ID must show it. That is security there(however effective or ineffective seems imaterial to the discussion so far), wether they are entering by bus, car, or on foot, so be it. But it DOES seem completely unfair(not to mention idiotic) that they would allow people WITHOUT id to stay on the bus, but people WITH ID that won't show it, they say can't enter?

HOWEVER, I think the city was dumb(well, it might not have been an issue when the line was set up) to run a public bus line through a secure(sometimes) area, and I don't think anyone on a public bus should have to show ID to ride(the same as I don't think you should have to show ID to walk down a public sidewalk, for instance), so I think the lady that was refusing had a point. But I think it all came off badly. Not sure how better to draw attention to the issue though!

**CingularDuality** · 01-18-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

Granted, the bus that Davis was riding was going through a federal facility, but it was merely passing through. She wasn't visiting the facility itself, and for all intents and purposes was just a random person on the street. Put this together with the fact that the guards do not in fact check ID all the time, and you can see how this begins to look even more wrong.

No, I don't see how it begins to look even slightly wrong.

The city was wrong to have a bus route through the Denver Federal Center (which is home to our National Archives, a military base and the largest concentration of federal agencies outside of Washington DC) without making it clear to the passengers that entry to the federal facility can be denied.

Do you not see how random ID checks can increase security while not slowing down entry through a gate as much? Have you ever worked in a secure area before? Ugh. Checking every single ID is a slow and tedious process. When you have tens of thousands of people trying to get through two gates into a facility, checking every single ID isn't feasible. But you don't want to send the message to bad guys that there's no security during rush hour traffic, so you conduct random ID checks. It's common practice and makes sense.

So, regardless of whether Ms. Davis was getting off the bus at this secure facility, she has gained access by staying on the bus as it enters. Who knows if she's going to get off at the bus stop that is inside the facility? She definitely was not a "random person on the street" when she was asked to present ID. She was a person requesting access to a secure federal facility.

SmokingTarpan · 01-18-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

But you don't want to send the message to bad guys that there's no security during rush hour traffic, so you conduct random ID checks.

So instead we'll send a message to the bad guys saying that they can get their bombs through as long as they say they don't have ID? :P

Quote:

She was a person requesting access to a secure federal facility.

In my mind, this place doesn't meet the requirements of a secure facility. Not only is ID not checked all the time, they allowed people in who had no ID. Would, say, the Pentagon let someone in if they had no ID (you don't even get to take a tour without ID)? To me, a secure facility means ID always checked, always required.

I think we're all in agreement about one thing though, the city definitely needs to fix this route.

**Pokerface** · 01-18-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

So, regardless of whether Ms. Davis was getting off the bus at this secure facility, she has gained access by staying on the bus as it enters. Who knows if she's going to get off at the bus stop that is inside the facility? She definitely was not a "random person on the street" when she was asked to present ID. She was a person requesting access to a secure federal facility.

No. She was a bus passenger. If $1.50 and a forged ID are enough to gain access to a federal facility, "secure" is not a word I'd be using to describe it.

Either 1) the bus shouldn't have been there, as the facility is "secure" or 2) the bus should be allowed passage as a bus.

01-18-2006, 02:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 16,791	Papers, please. I tire of the NSA spy discussion... What do you all think about the Deborah Davis case? The United States dropped the charges against her, but that just means that the underlying issue hasn't been settled. __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran: Last edited by CingularDuality; 01-20-2006 at 01:20 PM.

01-18-2006, 03:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Papers, please. With a photo like that, I'm not sure I'd show my ID, either. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

01-18-2006, 03:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
aeroripper Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 25 Posts: 2,284	Re: Papers, please. Communism isn't so bad when you think about it >_>

01-18-2006, 07:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 29 Posts: 5,722	Re: Papers, please. I'll grant that there are situations where showing certain ID is compulsory. If the authorities had gone through saying "Everyone show us your bus pass because we're conducting a fare audit" or something, I'd have been all for it. But as it's written at the link, a security guard got on a bus and demanded IDs for no specified reason. I don't know under what authority the guard was acting, nor do I know why he was asking in the first place. That being the case, I'd not be so quick to flash my ID to someone in uniform. You at least deserve to be told why, and you deserve the order to come from someone with the authority to give it. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

01-18-2006, 10:08 AM	#6 (permalink)
SmokingTarpan Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,459	Re: Papers, please. This brings to memory an situation that I was involved in several years ago. I work on a college campus and help run a network of computer labs. One day I was sitting in my office in the back of one of our labs, and as the lab worker came in they messed up the code for the alarm, and the alarm went off. I went out and helped the guy to turn it off, and as usual police showed up about 15min later to make sure everything was okay. He came into the back office where I and several others were sitting at our desks working, and asked if all was well. Since I was the closest, I spoke up and said yea, it's all good. He asked me for ID, which is fairly understandable given the whole alarm thing. But after seeing my ID, he took out a notebook and proceeded to grill me. He wanted my SSN, height, weight, all sorts of stuff, even to know if I had any tattoos or distinguishing marks on my body. He was a bit overbearing, and made it seem like this was absolutely required (I routinely answer alarm calls in the middle of the night, and I've only even been asked for ID one other time). At the time I thought nothing of it and complied, but a short while later I became quite angry; I felt like I was treated as if I had done something wrong. I'm still pissed about that to this day, and have done what I can in the meantime to learn what I'm required to do in a situation versus what an official would like me to do. This is one of the reasons I worry about things in this country done for "security" purposes. We go from making sure terrorists don't get onto planes with bombs to (basically) rent-a-cops getting an everyday citizen on a bus arrested. __________________ [squadl] "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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