DudeMan

very true but how many irqis did you see trying to help the american contractors who were dragged around in the streets, if the majority there were pro american and pro liberation where was those guys defense answer me that and ill grant that my argument is far fetched. most iraqis own guns so a militia is baisically a gang,... but a larger gang could over power them.

Mudshark

<sweeping generalization>
</sweeping generalization>

DudeMan

whats your point i was aiming at a majority of opinions here ttherefore a sweeping generalisation applied to the majority.

H-Hour

When education and wealth rises, people marry later, families are smaller, and fundamentalism decreases.

You saw this in Iran before the Iran-Iraq war and you have seen it in many other Arab areas. The most personal and dramatic proof for me was when I was in Jordan. In Amman they are wealthy and well educated. I never saw a single woman with a head-dress (a sign of more liberal muslim faith), average family size was much smaller, and people marry later. In the communities I visited with Habitat for Humanity (some of the poorest communities in Jordan, let alone the middle east), family size was almost always over 10, many men had multiple wives, and every woman that I saw was covered, most of them covered to the extent that only the eyes show (a sign of more fundamentalist muslim faith). With education comes family planning. With poverty, occupation, lack of education and infrastructure comes poor family planning and fundamentalism.

Mudshark

How many Americans did you see running out and confronting the rioters during the LA riots? I don't remember any. Does that mean that all Los Angelians are anti-establishment?

Besides, there is a difference between welcoming and actively helping American/British soldiers and contractors and just not wanting to murder and brutalize their corpses.

DudeMan

well this makes for an interesting argument however with the muslim faith it doesnt hold true. in the united kingdom asian families are still much larger than the white families... and wealth especially where i live is well distributed. i live as a minority as a white male in my borough, so actually there are more asian... and the birthrate of asian to white is disproportionate.

i can see the argument though and i hope that its true.

DudeMan

well i have no idea about la i am ENglish and therefore have no clue,

but i think if someone was being torn to shreds in my street i would stop them, and i dont care if you believe me, i have posted it here i went up against 3 men trying to abduct a woman, because it was wrong. i i am pretty sure that my countrymen would have done the same thing if they were truely British.

and if the people of LA let people be killed and dragged around the streets because they were anti establishment then i think a comment has been made of the people in LA because when it comes to killing another human being if i am at hand i will do everything in my power to stop it and i would expect the same from every male of good health do do the same.

Mudshark

OK, so you don't know about America but make generalizations about the majority opinions. What do you know about Iraq, being an Englishmen yourself?

Fair enough, I'll take you at your word. But, I'll tell you what I'd do if i saw an angry gun toting mob murdering and desecrating corpses with no regard for human life, and I could give a **** if you want to call me a pussy or whatever. I'd run away, FAST, find my family and friends, and and make sure they were safe. I'd do that instead of commiting myself to a certain and brutal death, no question. Flame me if you want. Won't change my mind.

_Ender_

I thought it was disgusting when those 2 or 3 rioters grabbed that guy out of his truck and beat him to death. I didnt find the act disgusting (it was, but on a different level), but just the fact that people watched them do this (it was all recorded on cameras) and no body didnt anything about. That just proved what a truly great country this is when somebody who is perfectly inoccent can get beatin to death, and everybody would rather just film it then help the poor bastard out. The people who just stand there playing with themselves while something wrong is happening right in front of their eyes is just as guility as the person doing it.

I've knocked out friends (good friends) because I've seen them back hand their girlfriends because it was the right thing to do.

H-Hour

Dudeman, you made that statement about Islam and then went on to talk about Asians.

DudeMan

ok why dont you stop there and breath then re read your post and stop making it confrontational.

yes if i sawe a gun wielding mob i would not interviene. but then again i dont live in iraq and i dont ahve a gun. the fact is that most people in irq have guns, and if they were that bothered about the loss of their liberators lives they would take up arms against the people thwarting the chance for their country to have a free and democratic governement.

now my comment that you quite rudely called me in not so many words ignorrant about was that i have no idae about the la riots, i am English and therefore if it was a big deal in america it wasnt here and was probably before my time. im also guessing that it isnt required learning at university in a law degree or in colloege as history which is where my education is going.

so please refrain from toning your post to demiene me or belittle me suggesting i know nothing about iraq.

and im sorry but if you are american then surely you of all people should see my point. isnt a certain day comming for you americans where your countrymen fought bravely against the biggest army in the world because you wanted to be a free and democratically run country, ids that not what the 4th of july is for.

if the iraqis population wanted a free and democratic society then they would be trying in some way to help they would also be tryiong to flush out the millitia which they know are thwarting the progress of peace and democracy.

DudeMan

ok h maybe a bad choice but ill add then that the majority of asians in my country are muslim. but ok you pick up on this but it really doesnt affect what i was trying to say. the meaning still holds true. if you want then substitue it for muslims.

DudeMan

right on brother, that is what i was getting at with the meaning of a True British person in my eyes, and i dont mean it literally if i was american id say a true american and such but this is exactly what i did with a mate of mine in college, he was dragging his girlfriend by the hair because he said she had kissed someone else he still felt by boot in his chin.

didnt affect my friendship niether, i understand that some people can crack and do stupid things but in my country and civilised countries i expect people to step in. and stop it, and if what you are saying is true that it was like 2 or 3 people then i am even more apalled at the level of response by the 20 - 40 i saw just watching on the news.

H-Hour

Prove it. You can't just use "the fact is" as a figure of speech. When you say "the fact is" it needs to be a fact. And I don't think it is. But I will gladly take back this post if it can be reasonably shown to be true and not just an assumption.

_Ender_

I think I read some where that Saddam didnt want the Iraqis to carry guns in case they did an up rising, so he made them illegal or something.. I could be wrong.