Root

So if a so-called Muslim straps explosives to their chest, walks up to a member of the Israeli government (as opposed to innocent civilians), and detonates themselves, you have no problem if THAT kills innocent bystanders? The alleged Muslim clerics (as opposed to genuine, decent, peaceful ones) are the real enemy on one side, and the politicians are the real enemy on the other side.

Fine, it's not your job. But you're saying that you wouldn't want to talk to Nasrallah if it WAS your job? Why on earth not? Would you talk to the leaders of HAMAS? They're about to follow the lead of Sinn Fein and the PIRA, and they're going to end up looking like the good guys in this mess. You (and anyone else) can take as much offense as you like from this, but you're occupying land that doesn't belong to you. I'll bet if the UN had siezed part of Germany and given it to the Jews, you and the Muslims would get along just fine.

I don't know what MSNBC's agenda is here exactly, but they're distorting the truth. You could apply that same article to the UK, to most of Europe, and even to the middle east. Muslims worldwide have condemned the cartoons and the violence.

I think it's the reason why worldwide, there have been sensible, mature, moderate responses from Muslims. Education is, as with everything, the silver bullet. Every group concerned needs to deal with their own extremists, and let the grown ups do the problem solving.

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SmokingTarpan

This is not the front line, this is the TG forums where we can sit and discuss the world's problems, maybe even get something done under the right circumstances. The "I'm just a soldier" excuse might be valid when you're actively being shot at, but that doesn't cut it here, in my opinion. What is a general but someone who was once a mere soldier with a good idea at the right time and place? The fact that you'd rather just carry on with the fighting instead of figuring out the actual problems and solutions when given a chance sadly speaks loudly to me of your real position on the issue.

Addict, I think you're pretty close to a large part of the issue. We've had lots of discussions about this at work, and one idea that has come up is something I pretty much agree with. Any place that has more churches/mosques/whatever than schools is bound to cause big problems.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Barracuda_Magoo

While browsing another forum, I saw someone bring up an interesting point about the riots in Afghanistan (where people were saying the US "controls" Europe). Many of those people can't even read their own language, let alone arabic, so odds are they haven't seen or understood the cartoons. Also, they clearly aren't keeping up on the news if they think we control Europe. It definitely looks like someone's pulling their strings and they're just parroting what their cleric tells them.

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Barracuda_Magoo

I don't know how other countries do it, but that certainly doesn't sound like the US military

I don't think anyone really wants the fighting to continue, but the easy alternatives aren't usually very attractive. That said, figuring out the problem and being able to fix it are very different things. I think everyone's agreed that one of the main problems is radical teaching in madrasahs (sp?), but that isn't really something the Israelis or the US can fix. That's something that only the Muslim community can change.

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Root

Burn

I disagree. Again, the Israel / Palestine situation has many similarities with the English occupation of Ireland. There are many in the PIRA who don't want peace, becuase quite frankly, they enjoy being violent. As the PIRA has moved away from terrorist acts, we've seen an increase in the amount of organised crime that they've been involved in. Not all of them, and terrorist groups both sides of the illegal border have always been involved in crime. Because they're not being allowed to blow innocent people up, they're using crime to fulfil their need to be violent, and I'll bet both sides of the dispute are targeting the opposite population in general. There are plenty of nasty people, calling themselves Muslims, who despise the thought of peace, and really couldn't give a damn if someone like Ben is Jewish or even Muslim. They want to kill, they want to main, they want to destroy peoples lives.

When the occupation of Ireland finally ends (and it will), the murdering scum who have used the morally right war against the invaders as an excuse for violence, will move on to any other target group that suits their needs. Most likely, that will be Irish republicans, which is exactly what those murders claim to be. It's extremely unlikely that the Israeli occupation will ever end, but if it did, I'll bet you any money that Arabs would be the next target of these so-called Muslims.

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Barracuda_Magoo

In a way, that was kind of my point. Many people say "if only Israel would withdraw" or "if only they stopped their reprisals" that things would improve. It seems simple enough, but not much would really change. Maybe I just phrased my original statement poorly.
Isn't this actually happening in Gaza now? I remember reading some articles about in-fighting in Gaza after the pullout, but I don't know much about the situation. Can anyone else shed some light on this?

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Leonidas

Tarpan and Root, you both have really good points. Indeed, how is it different to have a terrorist blow himself up, taking out a Israeli general and several civilians, than have you drop napalm on a funeral parade? The worst thing that could possibly happen to your cause is to decend to the level of the terrorists.

Very true, finding the source of all this is the most important thing, but it is not something that anyone other than the Muslims can fix.


And wait, what about when Israel offers massive(for such a small country) chunks of land, including all of jerusalem(The most holy sites in all of judaism) and even the Golan Hights, vital to the defence of Israel, all in the hope of peace? Is that not trying to end the fighting? I would imagine that they are sick of fighting and fear by now.

Every time all this is offered in the hope of peace, it is rejected. I don't think for a moment that Israel would not end it all if it had a chance. What human wouldn't after more than fifty years of war and fear?

The fact is that I cannot find a way out. How do you make peace with an entire religion when peace with jews would go against its holy texts? I have no idea.....This must really suck for those that are trapped within this sad pointless conflict.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

Root

I confess to having almost zero knowledge of the names of the key players in the middle east. On the news yesterday, HAMAS have said an Israeli withdrawal to 196x borders (I forget the exact year) would be cause for a "long term" ceasefire on HAMAS's part.

I also recall the acting Israeli PM talking about withdrawing entirely from some areas.

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Leonidas

Yes, the infighting has already begun. The Palistinians are tearing eachother apart in the same way you think will happen to Ireland.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

H-Hour

Israel has never offered all of Jerusalem or the Golan Heights. The "chunks of land" that have been offered have never been very massive or contiguous. In other words, they would be a collection of small cantons, passage between which could be easily controlled and shut down by Israeli forces. This is very much the situation in the West Bank at the moment. Israel has never offered a significant change to this formula, only minor adjustments.

Leonidas

I was partialy wrong. They have never offered all of Jerusalem, only part. But they DID give the Golan hight back to Egypt. They are under Egyptian control now.

They did offer to give back 90 something percent of the territories for the Oslo agreement, but they were rejected.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

H-Hour

You mean the Sinai peninsula. The Golan Heights is Syrian territory occupied by Israel.

When dealing with percentages, it is always very important to know which land is being talked about. Not all land is equal, which is why the issue of contiguity is important.

Leonidas

Arrgh. I was wrong about the Golan hights too....Read the map wrong, sorry.
well, they DID offer back the vast majority of the territories, and the Sinai, as well as a good portion of Jerusalem. You have to admit, thats pretty amazing considering they fought multiple wars with these people in less than 70 years. Wars that threatend Israel's existence and killed large portions of their population.

My point is simply that they have tried to make peace with them many times and it is never accepted. I just do not see a way to make peace with these people when it would go against thier holy texts, which say explicitly that Muslims should kill infidels.

These people take their Religion far more seriously than your average American Christian. Not that he does not, but it is on a whole other level with these people. Not a bad thing, in and of itself.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

H-Hour

Essentially I disagree (sorry to be a hard-ass about it, there have been some good intentions), but this is all pretty off topic. If you (or anyone) is interested in discussing the details of peace proposals feel free to PM me. I didn't mean to drag this thread too far off-topic, just wanted to correct the record on those couple of points.

SmokingTarpan

Heh, you miss my point. Or made a good fun jab at it. :P

What I meant was that generals aren't simply created out of nothing, they still have to rise through the ranks like everyone else. Going back to the very beginning of an army, the very first general is nothing more than a severely clever and intuitive foot soldier. In a current army, those soldiers with better ideas and implementations rise far quicker than those that just stand around and do as their told. Being a robot only gets you so far.

And Leonidas, everyone has some good points to go around. I wish I had a practical solution (the solution that I would implement isn't practical), but I don't. So I'm hoping that others might have one that's better than a continued fight. I disagree on one thing, though; I believe that there are people that would like nothing more than endless war. Some people simply thrive on conflict, and sadly have the gilded tongue to drag others into the fight with them.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo