Barracuda_Magoo

I just stumbled across this site on another forum: http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.c...ott-egypt.html From what I saw, it's clean, but definitely not impartial (as the disclaimer at the top states).

The gist of the article is that the cartoons were printed in an Egyptian newspaper in Oct 2005 (Ramadan) with none of the outrage we see now. The author then speculates that the current situation was whipped up to obscure domestic issues in several arab countries.

Edit: Here's another site that the first linked to http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot....ve-months.html (also not impartial)

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Diceman

Things seem to be simmering down in this thread. So, I thought I'd post this:

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[drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
[ma-c2][taw-c1]

Ben

Root, how can you sit there and type that Israeli's live on a land that does not belong to them? Then you go and say you have zero knowledge of the situation in the middle east? confused?

Even if you want to deny the absolute truth of the Jewish history in the land of Israel for over 3000 years, then you are still stuck with the issue that Israel won the land in a war cast upon them by the very Arabs you are trying so hard to defend. Israel won the war(s) that they never wanted in the first place.

Also, dont you live in England? Dont others here live in the USA? How in hell did YOU get this land you live on? Did you get it by magic? I am betting it was fought over and you won!! Maybe you should just go on and give back your home to whomever lived there pre-england colonialism? Or back to the Indians in America.
Is that too much to ask for? Obviously not since you all have no problem telling me and my people to just give up our homes to a people that have sworn in their charters to wipe us off the face of the earth!!

I have a great idea. Everyone should get the facts straight and think logically, it might save you some time and trouble. Dont preach to me about how Israel took something away from someone when it was noones to begin with. The Arabs had no government and no solidarity, read Josh's post about the history of Israel in the thread about "Hamas wins."

It gets quite tiring to hear the same ignorance over and over. Either educate yourself on the issue or not but do not ever throw out fiction based upon your own emotion rather then fact based upon history and experience. it makes you look bad.

Also, H-Hour, you show your true colors quite clearly. Israel has bent over backwards to offer those murderers a homeland and they spit in our faces and kill with more ferver then ever before. Israel offers land, Arabs offer death. Nice Peace arrangment!!

Land for Peace was a big mistake and all it led to was internal strife amongst Israeli citizens and more dead Jews at the Hands of Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, PLO, Islamic Jihad etc...

You all can either learn history or not. Your call. You all can either extend a sympathetic hand to those that kill for fun or not, your call.


Israel is trying to stretch out her hand in peace, trying to offer a non-violent solution to the war and the Arabs reject it and add salt to our wounds by killing us daily. long Live the "peace Process" !!! It is great for terror!!!
That is fact.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Ben

Also, I must add to a previous post.

If an Arab terrorist intends on fighting Israeli soldiers then i am of the opinion that it is within his rights to do so. They consider themselves soldiers and I am a soldier. If he wants a fight then he will get it. I do not fault them for fighting soldiers. I fault them for what they do on a much more consistent basis, that is killing, targeting civillians for the sake of terror. Bombing busses, cafes, movie theaters, schools, bus stops, Jewish homes, malls and on and on and on.

Oh yea, also guys, this is not just an Israeli problem. it is a Problem in Londan, New York and Sydney as well. Wake up to reality.

Clear?

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Steeler

Ben, I haven't heard anyone here yet defend a terrorist or his actions. Please stop equating thoughts on reaching a peaceful coexistence between Islam and the West with defending terror. Rest assured, no one here is interested in "trying to understand" a guy holding a bomb on a bus.

The goal is to encourage nations and communities favorable or indifferent to Islamic radicalism to abandon terror. Some people think you can do that with violent reprisals, some don't think that's an effective long-term solution. Napalming a funeral, IMO, is simply counter-productive in the long run.

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Ben

I disagree. Napalming a funeral procession that is being attended by hundreds of armed terrorists will greatly deplete the forces of the enemy. It is a temporary solution in a much bigger problem, but is does rid the world of some very horrific people. Kill the snake that is the most immediate threat and then find out which hole he came from. If you can find the hole first and destroy it, then good. if not, then at least remove the danger that is the most immediate threat to your life.

Also, H-Hour is defending terrorists and their actions by his statement of support of Hamas.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

AMosely

Good points as always Steeler.

What happened to this thread? We already have a thread going on Hamas and the current Palestinian/Israeli conflict. How'd this cartoon madness get mixed in?

As for the Israeli borderlands dispute, it's all about Jerusalem. Gaza and the Golan are insignificant compared to the West Bank border on Jerusalem. It's all about Jerusalem - Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock vs. the Western Wall and the foundations of the Second Temple. It is the center of it all, and has been fought over for thousands of years - why would it not be fought over for thousands more?

Ben

he is right. it is a religious struggle that is bigger then us all, yet we are all a part of it whether we like it or not.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

SmokingTarpan

And those that are there in rememberance of a relative, but in disagreement of what he stood for? Children that are there? While you have certainly destroyed a bunch of terrorists, you've also just created more to take their place by killing innocents. Now those people who were on the fence in the other side of the conflict can say, "They napalmed a bunch of kids, I guess Billy the Terrorist was right after all."

Do you not yet see the problem with your tactic? If not, then why not just drop a nuke or two and be done with it? You're certain to kill a lot of terrorists that way.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Ben

OUTRAGED MUSLIMS! OH MY!
We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4676930.stm> . In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.

Admit it, this turban/bomb thing could be the next big fashion hit on the Muslim street!

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago.

… "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

Indeed. Why not?

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

AMosely

No offense, Ben, but I wish there was a Muslim in TG who would come help balance out some of your posts, which seem awfully one-sided and often sterotypical.

Ben

No offense taken. Sometimes truth is one sided. It's the lies that take on many sides

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

JoshZeitlin

Allow me educate you on this issue. I have hundreds of pages of information on this... here is a selection from my archives.

Muslim refusal to accept Jewish claims to Jerusalem, as seen today, is a quite RECENT phenomenon. Omar ended the Roman ban that prevented Jews to enter within three miles of Jerusalem [Jewish Virtual Library], the Ummayad Caliphs in Cordoba built a synagogue for Maimonides(a Jewish Scholar) in the 1200’ds [Jewish Virtual Library], and Sala-e-Din, after defeating the Crusaders in 1187, wrote to the Jewish leaders, “Your exile is over. Whoever wants to come back is welcome” [Chayas]. Similarly, King Faysal of Iraq (1885-1933) expressed open sympathy for the Zionist movement. However, RECENTLY, the resident Palestinian Wakf has pronounced that the Western Wall is not a Jewish shrine; rather, it is the wall to which Mohammed’s steed was tethered [Israeli Foreign Ministry]. The Wakf has also pronounced that Jews should be forbidden to pray at the Cave of the Patriarchs. These ridiculous and obviously false declarations show just how far off the mark today’s Muslim religious leadership has become.
Though according to Islamic tradition, the Western Wall was in fact the place where al-Buraq (Mohammed’s steed) was tethered, it was already an existing part of a larger structure that has never had any special relevance in Islam. Supporting this claim is the un-argued, and equally unpublicized, fact that during a thousand years under Muslim authority (where Muslims had the opportunity to treat the Wall as the “holy site” they now claim it to be) the Wall was used as a GARBAGE DUMP; which is why, until this day, the nearby gate is called “Dung Gate.” Even today Muslims have the ability to show respect for the Wall, and in so doing “legitimize” their claims to it. Yet a majority of the Wall is obscured by Muslim houses whose residents CONTINUE to dump garbage on it. In fact, the only popularized section of the Wall which is visible and clean is a section cleared away and maintained by ISRAELl for JEWISH prayer. The Palestinians have no legitimate religious explanations for their refusal to accept Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem or the Western Wall.

If you want more history, just ask. I have more sources than you'd care to know.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

JoshZeitlin

The inclusion of Jerusalem among Islamic holy sites derives from al-Mi’raj, the Ascension of the Prophet Mohammed to heaven. According to legend, the ascension began at the Rock , which is usually identified by Muslim scholars as the Foundation Stone of the Jewish Second Temple [The Miracle of Al-Isra and Al-Mi’Raj].

"Glory to (God) Who did take His Servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things) [Koran 17.1]."

The “Farthest Mosque” is interpreted to be the Dome of the Rock in Israel, while the “Sacred Mosque” is unquestionably Ka’aba in Mecca. The above verse represents the only direct reference to Mohammed’s ascension in the entire Koran , and yet it “…nowhere directly refers to nor outlines the supposed ascent - a striking omission if it was a genuine experience” [The Nature of Muhammad’s Prophetic Experience]. Our knowledge of the event comes exclusively from the Hadith , the narratives of which expose a striking anachronism.
After announcing his ascension from Jerusalem, Muhammad was allegedly asked to describe the Jewish Temple.

"I stood at al-Hijr, visualised Bayt al-Muqaddas and described its signs. Some of them said: How many doors are there in that mosque? I had not counted them so I began to look at it and counted them one by one and gave them information concerning them [Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 1, p. 248]."

When members of the Qurayah doubted him, Muhammad went even further, saying that “Allah lifted me before Bait-ul-Maqdis and I began to narrate to them its signs while I was in fact looking at it” [Ibn Sa'd, Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 109]. When we hold this proclamation to the light of history, one can readily understand the necessity to view Mohammed’s journey as a metaphorical occurrence. When the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E, they completely took apart the Temple, taking care to remove even its FOUNDATION STONES. Approximately 600 years later – when the Ascension “occurred” – the stone’s circumstances were unknown and the Temple NO LONGER HAD ANY WINDOWS FOR MOHAMMED TO COUNT. Recognizing these facts require us to admit that there can be no connection between al-Mi’raj (the Ascension) and Muslim sovereign rights over Jerusalem.

Conversely, the Koran OPENLY RECOGNIZES THAT JERUSALEM PLAYS THE SAME ROLE FOR JEWS THAT MECCA DOES FOR MUSLIMS:

"Even though you bring all the proof to the people of the book [the Jews] they will not face the direction you turn to [direction of prayer – “Qiblah”], nor you theirs… [Koran 2.145]."

Koranic commentators explain that “the direction you turn to,” thy Quiblah (direction of prayer for Muslims) is unquestionably in the direction of Mecca. While “their” direction of prayer (direction of prayer for Jews) refers to the temple mount in Jerusalem. In opposition to the Islamic fundamentalist’s claim, the Koran, as we have seen, recognizes that for the Jews Jerusalem is spiritually equivalent to Mecca for Muslims.

How Muslims can KNOW this and still make claims that Jews have no soverign rights to Jerusalem is beyond me.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

AMosely

Yes, you are right Josh, technically the Jews win out because it's their #1 holy site versus the #2 or #3 for the Muslims. But that's nitpicking, isn't it (quote from Nigel Tufnel/Spinal Tap, for those of you paying attention).

Really, I am frustrated right along with you guys. This sucks for everyone. You can say everything and nothing, and in the end not a whole lot changes with this conflict.