Root

Ben you're talking rubbish. OF COURSE there are outraged Muslims. But if extremists like you control the Israeli media, I doubt you're going to hear about it. Yes, as much as I respect you as a fellow PCS player, and as a member of this community, you are an extremist, which in many respects puts you on the same level as the so-called Muslims that want to kill you just because you're Jewish.

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Root

If you were one of these so-called Muslim extremists, and I asked you what your claim to Jerusalem was, what answer would you give me?

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JoshZeitlin

I would think the significance of the issue at hand makes it a little more than nitpicking - nitpicking occurs over subjects like whether or not you'd accept a pizza with a topping you didn't like, not subjects of world wide significance. More people are willing to die over this "nitpicking" issue than perhaps any other in the world. You shouldn't belittle its significance.

Allow me to explain something. There are three LEGAL ways to legitimize one's right over property: Inheritance, Adverse Possession and, for lack of a better term, religion.

Inheritance is the most logical of the three. Essentially, a claim of inheritance is one whereby a person claims ownership of property based on the fact that it had been passed down to him/her via generations of established familial ownership.

Transfer by Adverse Possession is an invulntary method for obtaining property whereby a party assumes ownership of real estate that formerly belonged to another. Usually, the possession by the claimant must be all of the following: open (obvious to everyone), continuous, hostile, and adverse.

Religious claims to property need no elucidation.

"Palestinians" (Arabs who IMMIGRATED to Israel after Jews brought a job market to it) neither have claims of inheritance OR adverse possession, all that is left for them is Religion.

Now, assume you’re Jewish. Your people DO have historically documented claims of inheritance AND religion. Further more, even for those out there who refuse to accept the truth, even in THEIR minds you at least have Adverse Possession (which, btw, is a LEGAL way of assuming property in the US & Europe). Your claim to your property is as solid as it could possibly be, but in spite of this, you are faced with a group of people who - based ONLY on religious claims that are MEANINGLESS to you b/c your Jewish and not Muslim - kill your people and deny the very tenants of your existence and beliefs on a daily basis… what would YOU do?

Well, suppose you try what the Israelis have tried ON SEVERAL OCCAISIONS: Offer them land that they have no right to have in the HOPE, NOT CERTAINTY, that they will stop killing you. SUPPOSE THEY KEEP TURNING YOUR OFFERS DOWN?
If you are normal, you’d start to ask yourself why these Arabs keep saying “no” to your offers and why they accuse you of the very illegitimacy they suffer from. Someone looking to make peace wouldn’t refuse to admit basic tenants of your existence, sorry.. that’s just not a good way to make buddies. Add to the mix, that THESE ARABS INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN THAT YOUR PEOPLE ARE KIN TO THE DEVIL AND THAT YOU HAVE RELIGIOUS OBLIGATIONS TO WIPE THEM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. What would you do?

I’ll tell you what the Israelis are doing: they are about to offer them MORE land.

The poor basdards.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

JoshZeitlin

The answer: That nothing is as central to the Jewish religion and culture than that ONE city. That it is at the ABSOLUTE center of our hearts and minds. It is OPENLY promised to us in the Torah and Oral Law on THOUSANDS of occaisions, and more, that these same sources teach us that this city serves as our central connection with G-d. (Why do you think the Romans went out of their way to remove even the FOUNDATION STONES from the second temple? Why do you think Muslims turn it into a garbage dump whenever they get the opportunity? The answer: they knew/know what it means to us.)

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Root

Here's another way of putting that :

You say religion is a legal way to claim land, then go on to (effectively) say that Muslims can't do that because they're not Jews.

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JoshZeitlin

Oh yeah Root... I forgot to mention.

That city has seen a SINGLE year in the last 3700 without a Jew within its walls.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Root

Did you read my question correctly? Are you claiming that one of these alleged Muslims would give me the above answer if I asked them what their claim to Jerusalem was????? I think not. You've given me a Jewish answer.

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JoshZeitlin

I see your point... you didn't understand mine.

We respect other religions (more than they respect us I might add), but that doens't mean we subscribe to them.

Yes religion in general is used as a way to legitimize ownership of property, but when it comes to individual religions, you must keep in mind that each one considers the other to be false. So in Jewish eyes, muslims have no legitimate religious claims. (Ironically, I have already shown how in Muslim eyes, Jews DO have legitimate religious claims - they just ignore them.)

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

JoshZeitlin

Your right, I didn't understand your question.

The muslims have already answered your question. They say the Jews have no religious claims b/c Mohammad revoked our bible. They claim that Jews have no right of inheritance b/c they never lived there in the first place. Finally, they claim we only have ownership by adverse possession and are now "occupiers."

The history books make idiots of them.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Steeler

Could we keep the Israel/Palestine conflict in the HAMAS thread please?

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Root

Once again, you confuse those who use Islam as an excuse to be violent, with real Muslims who no doubt respect Jews as much as Christians or Bhuddists do. That is to say the level of respect will vary from person to person.

You have to pick a side here and stick to it. Either religion is, or religion is not, grounds for claiming the land. This is exactly why someone else has previously pointed out, that 3rd party arbitration is so useful. You're saying that religion is grounds for a Jewish claim, but is not grounds for a Muslim claim. Your reasoning (if you care to be blunt about is) is that being reasonable won't get you what you want.

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Root

Isn't the situation far more complicated than that? Can it really be pigeon-holed into two threads? Any Muslim with half a brain understands that the cartoons are something a private company in Denmark did. The idiots running round burning embassies are protesting to the effect that Jews, Americans and visiting Martians are all to blame. The protests are targeting far more than is reasonable, so doesn't it then become acceptable to debate the wider ranging issues here?

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Root

So no Muslim group claims Jersusalem has religious significance for Islam? It's simply that Mahammad said the Torah / Old testement is invalid?

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Steeler

Easy there. It's just that the HAMAS thread already has a lot of posts specifically dedicated to the issues in Israel, and several of the posts here have dealt exclusively with that issue, with little or no bearing on the cartoon thing. Since we're starting to get some cross-posting between the threads, I thought maybe those of us who wanted to talk about the cartoon issue might get this thread back and everyone who wants to debate the ownership of sand can go into the other thread.

Or maybe I'll just do the smart thing and walk the fark away from both.

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JoshZeitlin

Root.. if you want to know more PM me..


I dont want to offend you in public.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.