Leonidas

Its rather funny, But by far the most damaging kind of ideoligy in the last 150 years is, strangely, non-religious. The horrors of the Nazis, Soviets, Chinese, and dozens of other countries are unrivaled by any of the religious atrocities of the past.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

Root

Only muslims? Surely if you have a mob of any type of people in that situation, you kill anyone who is a valid target? This is where the problem starts. You've singled out a particular group (that it's muslims is irrelevant). Either you're going to have equality for EVERYONE or you're not. That applies to printing cartoons that offend others, it applies to people attacking your embassy, it applies to people being able to sit where they want in a restaurant.

I couldn't disagree more. If they want to run the cartoons, they're not breaking the law, so why should they hold back? Watching various news programs, and watching an extremely short debate on TV last night, it turns out that under Danish law, these hypocrits could go to the Danish prosecutors office, and start a legal process that could result in the cartoons being banned. I just hope the same hypocrits will next week be burning down arab embassies following the publication of a cartoon showing Hitler in bed with Anne Frank, and the caption "put THAT in your diary Anne". Of course they won't - because they're hypocrits. In the same way that Bush wants to force the middle east to become democratic, these people want to force their perverted version of Islam on the entire world.

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Faultline

I think you may be missing my intended tone. I'm not implying that the Danish media was unlawful or morally wrong for publishing the cartoons (I found them humorous and much in line with other religious satire I've seen over the years). They just should have seen something like this coming, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. They're hypocrits, using religion as a vessel for violence. But until the Middle East becomes a region that refuses to have a conniption any time a cartoon about Islam is made public, that's exactly what we should expect...a violent conniption followed by flags, embassies, and photos of W being burned.

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ScratchMonkey

It's funny how some focus on the religious aspect. When I first heard about this, I immediately likened it to the uproar that happens when someone burns a flag, or when the KKK runs a parade in some southern US city. All examples of expressing an opinion, and all met with threats of violence to silence that opinion. Religion isn't the only source of people wanting to suppress ideas they don't like. Nationalism and even opposition to racism are sources for this unpleasant attitude. Too many people don't trust their own message to be adequately more attractive than that of the opposition, and feel that violent suppression of the opposing position is the only viable way to spread their own ideas.

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Ben

Root, as it happens that it IS Muslims that are enjoying the destruction of the world as we know it, then yes, I am placing them on a pedestal. i am not politically correct, I am a realist. What is the problem by saying that when a group of Muslims do this or that. It is the Muslims that are causing hell on earth. The problem is with people that are too afraid to stand up to the Muslims and denounce the Muslims for acting like animals.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Root

First of all, regardless of what dellusions they may have,

THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT MUSLIMS they are HYPOCRITS

Secondly, what's wrong with being politically correct when it's the reasonable thing to do? You say shoot at a mob of muslims attacking an embassy, I say shoot at a mob of anyone. Can you see the difference? The implication (though I would hope not your real intent), is that you would treat a group of non-muslims differently.

I understand what you're saying, but isn't that akin to telling a rape victim that she asked for it because she wore a mini skirt? Maybe it's not an exact comparison, but I think it's reasonably close. The Iranian government has responded reasonably to these cartoons in at least one instance - they've banned imports of Danish goods. That's completely different to burning down embassies, or walking through the streets carrying signs calling for the beheading or extermination of anyone who tells a joke if it's about Islam.

When it comes down to it, the mature respone for any member of any religion (or political party, or racial group, or WoW guild) is to laugh it off and / or attempt to deal with the matter via the courts and / or ignore it and / or respond in kind.

Islamic extremist is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity. (Apologies for stealing that from a TV show, but it IS correct).

The Klan call themselves Christians. They are exactly as Christian as the "Muslims" burning down embassies and calling for the death of all who mock Islam.

That will certainly be a day for celebration. It's down to the religious leaders in the region to make it happen though.

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Ben

I would most certainly shoot at anyone that attacked, but my point is this: THeY ARE MUSLIMS, and they are acting the way modern Muslims are taught to act in the large majority of the Muslim world. SO QUIT MAKING EXCUSES FOR THEM. They have told us how they feel and what their intentions are, we, for some odd reason, try our utmost to mix their statements up and say all day "oh no, they dont REALLY mean what they are saying, they don't represent Islam etc etc." They do represent Islam. Other Muslims are not decrying their violence and destruction.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Root

And now that's clear. Here's a thought - we might have members here that are Muslim. Whilst some people may be more angry at Islam than others right now, it's important to remember that real Muslims (and many hypocrits) are still decent people, and don't deserve to be grouped in with idiots, troublemakers, criminals and terrorists.

Was I not clear in my last post? I can only make the text one size larger. THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS. If you do not follow a religion ABSOLUTELY, you are a hypocrit. The idea of religion isn't that you pick and choose the bits you want to follow. A Muslim does not call for the beheading or extermination of someone who makes fun of Islam. What you are saying is no different than saying the PIRA are Catholics. They are NOT. They, like these alleged Muslims, are in fact HYPOCRITS.

What excuses have I made, and who EXACTLY have I made them for?

Yes a particular group has made it's feelings and intentions clear. I haven't seen anyone trying to mix their statements up. No one here is doing that. Yes they do mean what they're saying, but they ABSOLUTELY DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM BECAUSE THEY ARE HYPOCRITS AS FAR AS ISLAM IS CONCERNED.

Wrong. The REAL Muslims have certainly got their work cut out for them though. As long as people OUTSIDE of Islam feel that there's a reasonable amount of evidence to support your claim, they haven't succeeded. The media doesn't help. They should NEVER use the word Muslim (or Christian (KKK) or Catholic (PIRA) or Protostent (Loyalists). They should talk about criminals, terrorists, troublemakers, hypocrits and dangerous liars. That, after all, is the truth.

Unbelievably wrong. I've seen Islamic leaders from the UK on the news denouncing the whole situation. Yes that's right - both the cartoons themselves AND the violence AND the calls for exterminations. I've also heard news reports stating that other Islamic leaders have done the same.

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ScratchMonkey

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant the threats of violence against the KKK or parade organizers. I was comparing things we find offensive to those that Islamists find offensive and apparently inciteful. There are those in the US who would ban these things (eg. pass an amendment banning flag burning), which I find no better than the Islamists' response to the cartoons.

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Root

Oh I see. Sorry - I misunderstood you. Cing had a line in his sig that sums up the argument on banning flag burning. Bad, BAD idea.

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Faultline

Sort of. Although, I'm not suggesting that the Danish media are the root of the problem here.


Agreed. I believe it's still a little hypersensitive but much more responsible. And coming from Iran??...a miracle in itself.

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Root

Fair enough. In that case we share the same opinion here.

Well I'm sure they're implicated in the un-Muslim activities that have been going on in the name of Islam too. When are these people going to wake up to the fact that they worship the same god as the Jews and the Christians. You'd think that would make for peace rather than war. I don't go round calling for the death of (a name at random) Bommando because he plays BF2 instead of CS. He's TG, I'm TG.

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Ben

Islam is not and has never been a religion of peace. Islam preaches the killing of infidels. Islam preaches the killing of Jews.
I know you don't like when a group of people are streotyped but they brought this upon themselves. No pity from me and no excuses either.
I have also heard from Muslim scholars on the "news" that only 10 percent of the Muslim population are fanatic.
Well, now I feel better...out of a billion of them, "only" 100 million are fanatic.
that puts my mind at rest..

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Root

Can you point me to the correct page of the Koran please?

From where I'm sitting, you're saying there's no difference between a devout Muslim, a hypocritical thug that claims to be a Muslim, and a hyprocrit who's only breach of Islamic law is to enjoy pork sausages with his breakfast.

It should do. It means that 900 million of them aren't fanatical, and that includes a large figure of decent, law abiding citizens. Would you prefer that 90% were fanatics?

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SmokingTarpan

Who are you to say what a real Muslim, or anything for that matter, is? I don't mean this to call you down or cause offense, and all "you" terms that I use from here on out are the general "you". As I said in a previous post, the fact of the matter is that no one- including those who follow the religion themselves- has any idea what the real rules are. The best anyone can do is follow what they believe is most true.

Who's to say that true Islam doesn't call for the death of all non-believers? It's rather silly that people automatically assume that the true believers of any religion call for ultimate peace. All we have in front of us here are two factions of the same parent religion that follow different paths, one calling for peace and the other for violence, and there's no saying which one is the one true way unless you actually are the Supreme Beings(s). It would be the sect desiring violence that is causing issues at the moment (and not just pertaining to the cartoon thing). That sect is not being hypocritical; it is doing what it believes it should do. Denouncing them for following their beliefs shows not only a large degree of naïveté for not being able to wrap your head around the concept, but also a huge amount of arrogance in thinking that you know the true divine law as if you were the Supreme Being(s) yourself.

Free speech and all, but I don't believe that anyone in the world- including clergy- is qualified to comment on something as undefinable and mystical as religion. Do what you think is right, find out the reality of things in the end like the rest of us, keep quiet in the meantime.

Besides, we all know that it's the Mormons that will go to Heaven.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo