Diceman

Can you elaborate, please?

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Faultline

I was referring to Addict's post:

Isn't Iran a member of the not-going-to-recognize-an-Israeli-state group?

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Barracuda_Magoo

I'd say that's a pretty big understatement.

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Diceman

I see. Out of curiousity, what do you suppose would have been a better subject for their retaliatory comic contest - being that their intention is to inflame western sensibilities?

I'm not trying to make a point defending this rather silly tit-for-tat going on, but in only analyzing the effectiveness of their chosen means to acheive their goals, it seems to me that they took the most appropriate subject they could. I can only presume that they wanted to upset others around the world, and then to use the ensuing denunciations of hatred to legitimize the current reaction to the Danish cartoons.

That being the goal - to upset people, especially Westerners - what other subject is going to have as universally profound an impact?

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Faultline

I was merely pointing out they're getting two birds with one stone on this one. Sticking it to western nations in general and hitting par for the course on their love for Israel.

You're right, it will get attention. Will it cause everyone outside the Arab world to burn some embassies, start some riots, maybe attack a few mosques and fire stations? I doubt it, but anything could happen.

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Diceman

Yeah, I hear what you're saying on this point. Truth be told, I revised my post a lot before posting it, so as to not obfuscate the two issues by interleaving them.

I also suspect that while most of the western world will ignore this whole thing (just like most muslims ignored it), there will be a few high profile blowhards who will only too gladly play the game. This only assists in polarizing us all.

Sigh. How depressing.

Edit: Just found this. Just wanted to underscore the point that reasonable people can be found in all faiths and in all places. As can fanatics.

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Faultline

Agreed. Keep your fingers crossed though. There's always a chance the blowhards will take the high road

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SmokingTarpan

Is it really that different? Perhaps to a non-Muslim, it seems so. Sounds to me like drawing the Prophet is a pretty high crime in and of itself. Add to that the idea of drawing him as a terrorist? Sounds like fighting words.

The cartoon challenge by Iran actually makes me laugh. Despite everything we've done to try to get them to fall in line with the western world, it takes a cartoon of the Prophet depicted as a terrorist to do it. I have in my mind a picture of feuding neighbors, each one's antics trying to one-up what the other guy just did until it ends up with someone driving their car into the other's house. The only thing thing that can make them more western now is if they start filing lawsuits left and right. Or maybe Jerry Springer.

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"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Lucky Shot

In the below, Sura = Chapter of the Koran...

I post this only as it has been challenged that the Koran does not have violence or reference killing infidels. You are likely to find references to smiting enemies in the bible. Rumor is it that the Koran never mentions the word Love, but I could not verify that.

Lucky Shot

Ben

Bommando,
I feel sorry that you cannot see the difference between terrorists and defenders of freedom. You cannot see the difference between people that strap aexplosives to their bodies, walk into a pizza shop and detonate themselves and everyone inside, killing men women and children, brides, teenagers and babies in their strollers.

You can, and as it shows, you will continue trying to morally equate what I do in the Israeli Army and what the scumbag terrorists do all over the world. I just pray that you never have to collect body parts or chase after a terror cell that has just killed a family in their home simply because they are different. ie infedels.

The Muslims that act like animals (not every one) have earned my contempt/hatred/disgust. They have earned it with the blood of my people.
The fact is and remains that Jews do not go around senslessly killing Moslems the same way that Moslems go about senslessly killing Jews. There is simply no comparison.

Guys, I am not making this up out of thin air. I LIVE THIS. You are in Austrailia and have no concept of what it's like to be surrounded by these non-humans.
I hope to God you never have to find out but the way this world is turning I am not so sure.
Good Luck talking your way out of this fight Bommando, theyll have your head before you know what hit you.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
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Root

Ben - I realise that you're passionate about this, and I understand why, but if you would have done a lot more for your case if you'd been the one to post that info, instead of just unloading your anger on us.

The Koran also contains the 10 commandments, including thou shall not kill (please debate symantecs elsewhere). The bible talks about an eye for an eye, which logically can be escalated to a life for a life. The Torah contains the same.

So not only do all Muslims, Jews and Christians all share the same god, they're all the proud owners of a hypocritical, conflicting holy book. We don't regard the Klan as Christians, yet they invoke gods name often enough. These protestors call for the death of people who mock allah. The PIRA kill people because they're protestant. The loyalists kill people because they're catholic. There's no difference between these groups.

The answer? Ban religion. Along with party politics, it's one of mankinds most dangerous inventions. Failing that, we need to recognise only peaceful, decent people as representing these religions.

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Trooper

when reading such books you have to take them into context, so many people don't do that. You have to understand the dates in which they where written. The bible does state eye for an eye, but it was also the custom and tradition of the time, of how to handle its crime and punishment. And there is no escalation involved, The OLD TESTAMENT is very clear on how to handle everything, back in 2300BC-0BC. But once the new testament was written and those new rules where established the old testament was turned into a well written history book.

All religious books are a set of rules that are still followed today by the major religions. Just when an outsider comes in and starts quoting scripture and misinterpreting the meaning is when it gets ugly.

And to Ben i was reading your posts then seen your place of location and it all clicked. You do see things differently then any of us do. Thx for the background

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

Steeler

Ben, we all understand your position on this. The problem I have with your statements is that, despite your claims that you don't think ALL moslems are bad, you have consistently indicated you believe there is a fundamental flaw in Islam itself which generates violence and bloodshed, whereas I would suggest that that violence stems from a variety of local, more immediate causes. Fundamentalist dogma can be the catalyst for violence and hatred, but there are other reasons - economic, political, personal.

Your words would effectively condemn all Islamic adherents as members of a culture of evil. Now, I happen to think that there are a lot of things in Islam that are pretty crazy. Crazier even than some of the crazy crap in Christianity. But there are millions who ignore the crazy and still call themselves Muslim. Those are the people Bommando and others are defending from your (percieved) rhetorical attack. By all means, condemn the terrorists and the ideaologues and the martyrs. But don't throw millions of better people into that pit with them.

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Ben

Yay, according to Root a Godless society is the way to go. that is escapism and denial. An eye for an eye originates in the Torah and it DOES NOT mean that you physically remove someones eye if they remove your eye, or revenge on him for what he did to you.

Countless Jewish scholars of the centuries preceeding this Godless one have made it quite clear in their interpretation of this passage to mean that you must pay a monetary compensation equal to the loss of productivity and trauma if you do "poke someones eye out" and are taken to court.

Please Root, don't translate the Torah in a way that suits your needs, it is way to complex and studied upon for you to translate and cheapen something from ancient Hebrew into modern English and claim even a bit of understanding into it's meaning.

Judaism is not a confused religion. It is an unbroken chain of ritual and law of over 3000 years with almost no discrepencies in the way people in Russia practiced it and in the way people in Ethiopia practiced it for 2000 years since being exiled from Israel.

rather then "Ban Religion" people should take a closer look at their respective religion, learn as much about it as possible and make an intelligent decision as to if it is the proper path for them to take. I also see many inconsistencies with Christianity (ie if you are not "saved" by Jesus then you are going to hell) and with Islam (many of their stories in the Koran were plagerized from the Torah only with the name ishmael and Mohammed placed in the names of Jewish names).

So no, do not ban religion, rather ban religious intolerance and ignorance. God is a wonderful, peacful ally to have if you choose to accept, no matter what religion you practice.

I am not the most religious person in the world but I do know that you can be moderate and a believer and a follower of a religion without being a psychotic freak haxor noob fragmonkey to others that dont believe in exactly what you believe in.

Jews accept Christianity and Islam, Jews do not try to convert others to Judaism, ever. (We actually discourage conversion as a step in the conversion process because we know that Judaism is a very hard religion to follow due it's many stringencies and laws.)

If you are looking for utopia, good luck finding it since it is not reality. i still hold strong that radical Islam is the next world war and we are seeing it's ugly head every day.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Ben

I say again and again that not all muslims are bad people, just like all Jews, Christains, Blacks, Whites are not bad people.
BUT, I know that the modern followers of Islam are the ones that are radicalizing their religion. It is spreading like wild fire all over the world and we see it in the streets of every European and middle eastern country.

I do feel that there is a fundemental flaw in Islam. Whether that offends your sensitivities or not is not the point.
I respect everyones opinions and love the freedom to express, but my opinion, based upon life experience (not based upon news reports like most of the posters here) is that the Islam we are seeing in todays world is defective.
There are millions and millions of radical followers of Islam that are so commited to the Islam they believe in that they are willing to destroy other humans on a mass scale to prove their devotion.

Ok, if it were a group like the PIRA, with maybe at most several thousand members, I could understand that it is just a small radical faction...but I am talking a minimum of 100 million Muslims that are ready to answer the call to Jihad and kill and kill and terrorize and kill some more. I dont make this number up, it was a direct quote from a top representitive of an American based Muslim society stating that "only around 10 percent" of Muslims are radical. 10% of a billion is 100 million and no Root, it does NOT comfort me that there are 900 million non-radical Muslims in the world.

100 million people that are hell bent on world destruction? sounds like a bad nightmare. Also, if there are 900 million Muslims so opposed to how the radicals are acting then where are they? You rarely hear them denouncing and speaking up and taking a stand against their 10% band of Jihadists.

It will only spread more and more, and soon radical Islam will be at your doorstep just like 9/11, just like in Israel 50 times a day, just like in Londan on busses and undergrounds etc...

You are talking from no experience, I am talking from a lifetime of experience and living amongst these people.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication