munchkin

Here's an interesting aside:
from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...d/jihad2.shtml

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Leonidas

You no longer fight wars to get rid of excess population. Maybe back then, but not now.

And is it so very hard to understand that perhaps these animals(Including their leaders) really do believe in their faith and "mission"? Since people in the western world are not typicaly twisted and devoted enough to blow themselves up in service to their religious "cause", we cannot understand why a human being would do such a thing. Instead we try to westernize the concept.

Of course, we than try to make it a matter of the animal's leaders minipulating them to serve them, while not really believing in the cause themselves.

You cannot fathom what would make them do such things, so you try to make it somthing you can understand. Don't try, we will never understand. I fully believe that they, including their leaders, believe in their cause.

And to everyone who thinks that they, somehow, know better than Ben, when he is the only one who has actually been to this place and seen such things, how is this possible?

Do you really think "No, Ben, you may have really been there, but I've watched on CNN and read stuff, so I know better than you do"? I mean, come on! No offence, but stop fooling yourselves.

Oh, and "You must spread some reputation around before you give it to Ben again"

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

Addict

These are the two statements I can not seem to reconcile. When you two say that the entire basis of the religion is the problem, and the religion is what defines Muslims, how exactly are you NOT attacking ALL Muslims?

And I do inherently resist all grand stereo-typing or mass generalizations or absolutes, so I do struggle with the idea that you seem to espouse that I should consider all Islam my enemy(As it is fundementally flawed). I have more hope than that, however naive that makes me seem to you. I'm sorry you have faced such horrors, and you are definately more on the front line, and I do not deny your experiences. I do still hope though.

I'll give you this much though, if 90% of the muslim world is NOT like the 10% that is extremist, why are those 90% not denouncing and controlling the other 10% more? That gives me pause, and sends me on a search to find references to parts of the muslim world that ARE denouncing them.

Leonidas

I do not attack any of the Muslims that are peaceful and do not in ANY way endorse the actions of these animals.

I suppose, according to the idea of some here that if you do not follow your holy texts to the letter you are not really a member of your religion, than its only the true muslims I hate. I mean, if the Koran says to kill infidels wherever you find them and you don't, that means you aren't a muslim, and if you do kill infidels wherever you find them, you are a muslim.

I suppose I sorta reversed that one on ya, huh? You probably should have read the Koran before you said that. In defence from the argument I will most likely get: Nowhere in the bible or the Tora does it say that you should kill infidels. Parts may be interpreted that way, distantly and incorrectly, but nothing like the Koran.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

Ben

Simple: Not all Muslims are bad. Thats all. The ones that do follow Islam in it's extreme form (or just according to the Koran for that matter) are bad evil people.

Good.....Bad...

Right.....wrong...

C is for cookie, it's good enough for me....I feel like I am on Sesame Street giving a basic intsruction on good and bad.

I am more or less spent by now, having stated my thoughts over and over. Either you do get it or you dont. Just count your blessings that you live (for now) in a society that is free regarding thought, religion and opinion.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Ben

and BRAVO to Leonidas. he nailed it quite effectivley.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Ben

http://seconddraft.org/streaming/pallywood.wmv

on the topic of Arab/Palestinian propaganda, this video is a must see and will open your mind to how the non-humans minds think.
It is very much worth watching.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Leonidas

I must say the same. I have made my arguments, and have no need to repeat them when you can just look at the pages past.

That was a good talk. Thanks to Ben for just being cool, intelligent, and making a great argument.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

SmokingTarpan

Because their arguments don't come across to me as the desire to kill mountains of people.

If your opinion were clear as day, then I wouldn't be confused about your statements. And, as I said, I know that you don't want to kill all muslims- but that's the vibe I'm getting. Remember, you can tell a dog in a sweet voice that he's stupid, and he'll be all wiggles; but call him a good boy in an agry tone, and he'll sulk.

I see this "Jihad" less as pro-Islam, and more as anti-Western. Unfortunately, as bootstrap said, it's easier to rally your people with "They don't believe in our God" than with "They wear brightly colored shirts". Islam isn't flawed, the people are.

I'm not.

In BF2, the SL on the ground knows some things the CO doesn't, and the CO with the satellite knows some things that the SL doesn't. Neither has the complete picture, so both must work together. Funny thing how BF2 can mimic so many facets of life. Perhaps there should be a World Church of Battlefield?

I believe you missed my point entirely. In the conflict, the two involved are ready to hiss and spit at each other to no end. It is the outside influence, unaffected by the conflict itself, that is the one who presents a rational solution that neither involved party would come to in the first place. It's not "we know how it is, so we'll agree to this" so much as "we can't agree on anything, so we'll let someone else decide it for us".

Count to ten? Play badminton? Though you may be on the daily front line, I've no doubt that the radicals would kill me given a chance- and I don't even know or particularly care about them. There comes a time when people need to settle down and take a rational/logical approach to things, hopefully sooner than later, lest everyone involved end up destroyed in the end.

As to all the "non-human" and "animal" talk, heh. I can think of a few times where all of us, or our forefathers, were referred to as such for one reason or another. Glad to see we've improved so as not to repeat history.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Ben

I guess your lack of fortitude and silence to the Radicals is what seperates the two of us. I will fight for my life and the lives of others and you will continue playing BF2. Ok, sums up your strength. nuff said.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Barracuda_Magoo

I came across that video a couple months ago. It's definitely an eye-opener.

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Boot

I disagree. I think the leaders of these Fatwah movements know exactly what they're doing. They're cultivating the radical elements and turning them to their own purposes, rather than having them cause trouble at home.

I said it earliler, I think Marx was right in some respects. The leaders of the movements we're discussing are using religion as their means to achieve their ends. Their ends, I happen to believe, are Evil -- and I do believe in Evil. But the people themselves have succum to this power through corruption of religion. Whether this is corruption of a "peaceful Islam" or Islam itself is a corruption of other religion is a relevant debate, but my point stands beside it.

I like to think I'm intellectualizing the concept, but it could be the same thing.

I agree that understanding the bombers mindsets while doing their despicable acts is impossible, they are under the influence of a religious opium. But understanding the bombers mindsets during these acts is a moot point: At this point they have become pawns. It is the kings we need to worry about, and that's my point. If this problem will ever be solved it will be because we focus on the right things, and fight the kings by countering their own strategies.

We have the opportunity to reduce the number of pawns, and to do this we must understand what drives people to be open to this corruption. This is where economics comes into it. The young man who has no prospects for job or family seeks something larger to be a part of. The young man with a promising job and a young gal who wants to grow old with him has more to live for.

This won't ferret out all the kooks, but it will reduce the breeding ground to a point where the radical leadership is replaced or tempered by a more comfortable, stable, moderate majority. And per my earlier post, I believe the battle is underway. It could be 20 years before we win.

I think Ben, but for the grace of God, could be me. I consider myself very fortunate to have been born where I was, and I appreciate it every day. I +rep'd you Leonidas because you've done a great job of supporting Ben here. I +rep'd Ben because he, but for the grace of God, could be me.

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Boot.

In Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU.

USN_Squid

BBC Admits they fanned the flames of hysteria by publishing a faked cartoon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4686536.stm

Twelve cartoons were originally published by Jyllands-Posten. None showed the Prophet with the face of a pig. Yet such a portrayal has circulated in the Middle East (The BBC was caught out and for a time showed film of this in Gaza without realizing it was not one of the 12).

This picture, a fuzzy grey photocopy, can now be traced back (suspicion having been confirmed by an admission) to a delegation of Danish Muslim leaders who went to the Middle East in November to publicise the cartoons. The visit was organised by Abu Laban, a leading Muslim figure in Denmark.

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SmokingTarpan

I thought what sent people over the edge toward violence was the whole bomb-turban thing? I hadn't even heard of the pig issue until now.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Faultline

Some more good news:

Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S.


Interesting addition of the French:

The article also makes mention of some prominent Islamic figures calling for peace and the possibility some of the turmoil is being heightened by al-Qaida.

Looks like it may be a while before things settle down *sigh*.

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