Ben

Your quote Bommando:
"You claim that we would not begin to understand because we don't live among it, but then you proceed to claim that it's on everyone's doorstep and the 'menace' is all-pervading. You claim that 'these animals' are somehow bent on invading and destroying everyone's lives, not just in their own land but everywhere. So, which is it? Am I sheltered because it's not on my doorstep, or is evil taking root under my feet? It can't be both."


Read it again. I said that it is coming your way and you will not be able to pacify it with speech, money or your quaint ideals. It has hit the USA, it has hit the Brits and It has hit all of the middle east and most of Europe. It simply has not reached the level of threat that we face in Israel daily, but it will unless we cut it off at the head right now in 2006. Try as you might but you cannot pacify these animals and they could care less of your sympathies to the underdog.

So you, Bommando, "wont stand by while someone spews forth biased and hateful rhetoric to justify their belligerence" but you will stand by and watch the world crumble around us as the Muslims go on their merry little rampage? That is an issue you should seek to clarify.

It sounds just like when the Arabs say that the West must pay for the outrage caused to them over a cartoon, yet the Arabs stand silent and even dance in the streets when planes are crashed into the world trade center....You seem confused as to what is important in life.

My focus is on defending the lives of good people. You focus is on proving a point that I am feeling hatred with my enemy. Good point, I do hate my enemy.

You can, as you say, explore the cause and point fingers all day long. I live in reality, it's a place where bad things happen to good people. You can do study after study as they place the knife on your neck, or, even worse, on the neck of someone you care about. I won't be "studying" the cause of the problem, I will be fighting it.

Also, Soldiers in israel do not bulldoze "entire communities". They do destroy the houses of known terror operatives and for good reason.
In my opinion, Israel is not nearly as hard on terrorists as they should be.

Imagine, if you even can, that 100 meters from your front door in Sydney, there is a villiage. And in this villiage are 10,000 people that daily throw stones at your car as you drive home from work, that throw molotov cocktails at your wifes car as she drives to and fro with the kids and occasionally they shoot at your houses with AK-47's forcing you to shut the lights and drapes and take cover in a special sealed room that every home must have due to a constant threat of attack (be it chemical warfare or infiltrations from this neighboring village).

What would your life be like? What would your feelings be for these "neighbors" across the road?

What length would you go to in order to protect your family?

This is how we in israel, as Jews, must live our lives every day and every night. We send our children to school in the morning on busses not knowing if an Arab suicide bomber will blow it up. Do you have a clue as to how it feels to live this way?

Yes, the Arabs in Israel were given a raw deal, not only by Israel but also by there own fellow Arabs in neighboring Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia.
At the very least I can say that Israel does not indescriminantly kill Arab civillians. Israel targets terrorists, plain and simple.

Israel opens it's hospitals to Arab patients, Israel opens its health care system to Arabs, Israel allows tens of thousands of Arabs to work in Israel every day. And what do we get in return? Bombs, Killing, Death and Destruction, thats what.

Yes, I do feel bad for the Arabs that simply want to go to work and make an honest living. BUT, there comes a time when you have to say "enough is enough"!!
If it means that the Arabs will have to be inconvenienced by sitting at roadblocks in order to ensure the safety of the Israeli population, then so be it. If it means that Arabs will be put under a watchful eye then so be it. If it means targeted killings of terrorists, then so be it.
Whatever it takes to ensure the safety of my people.

Man, trust me, we have tried to negotiate with the Arabs and all they give us in return is war war war. most Israeli's are sick and tired of war. Most Israeli's over the age of 70 have fought in 4 or 5 wars, have seen numerous friends killed and most recently have seen family and friends killed from terrorist attacks. THEY ARE SICK OF WAR. Israeli's are even willing to give up there land that they own to the Arabs for a peace agreement.
Now, tell me, what have the Arabs offered in return for this land? N O T H I N G. thats right, nothing but blood, death and more terror.

I am not making this **** up, it is cold hard fact. For the love of all that is good in this world, at least learn the modern day facts. At the very least.

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A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Quest Shady

Wow....

Bommando I think your living in your own idealistic world...A world of appeasement where you say...

"There is a reason behind every extreme act. It's not my place to dictate what is just and what is not, but I will not stand by while someone spews forth biased and hateful rhetoric to justify their belligerence."

So if you ever become "under fire" do you sit back and think...

Why is he mad...

Why does he hate me so?

What did I do wrong to him?

Yet as you try to reason out his actions he looks down at you with his gun and as he pulls the trigger you can ask why...

At that moment does it really matter why? Try and figure out the why once the danger is gone....

I wanna repeat what you said...

"It's not my place to dictate what is just and what is not,"
UMMMM then who is...there is a basis of morals (good and evil) and lets say HMMM sending a suicide bomber into a bus of kids...or beating woman down because they have no role in life other then mans will....IS this GOOD or is this EVIL?

At the same time you can not make up if this is GOOD or EVIL you look down upon those that with firm conviction say yea thats evil and I MUST do something about it or I am part of the problem...

You are liken to a deer in the middle of the road with the headlights glaring...neither jumping to either side.... You end up road kill.

If you give any credance to evil, or justification for it, you bring it on equal moral grounds with yourself...You are in essence defending it...

And you also said...

"Call me a moderate, call me sleepy, but also understand that I am not blinded by racism or religious zeal to such an extent that it prevents me from exploring the cause rather than the symptoms."

At what moment will you wake up my friend? When the gun is in your face? I understand seeking causes to problems but we must first take care of what is real and what is now...

I do not believe Ben hates every Muslim...I believe he HATES the radicals that are trying to KILL (EVIL) he may also HATE those that side with these radicals...I would dare say he may even dislike those that are Muslim and do not call their own to heel....in essence defending the murderers and killers.

Do we as a country and our president do everything right? NO...Are their casualties? Yes! But like Bens Tagline says...

"Make a plan and stick to it but never be afraid to change the plan based on the current battle situations.
Long Live |TG|Ben!!!!!!!! "

And STEELER why would we lock this thread...this is the sandbox where we all can get a little dirty...if you don't like the thread there are many more... If we can't take a little sand in the face then we need to get out of the sandbox...LOL

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Leonidas

I would expect better from a admin and TG officer of your stature. Try intelligent discussion instead of childish insults. No offence, but come on....

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

SmokingTarpan

You're right, you deal with the danger now. But lets say you keep getting guns pointed in your face over and over. Perhaps then it might be a good reason to look into why that is the case, no? Maybe it's that "I did your mom button" that you decided to wear through the gang-riddled part of town. There has to be a point where you sit back and say, "Man, what caused this?" or else all you end up with is a lot of dead people.

Also, remember that for all this talk of good and evil, all you're really referring to is subjective good and evil as defined by man. No one knows what true good and evil are, unless you're the Supreme Being(s). Hopefully no one here is that arrogant.

Take note: I'm about to ask a question or two that will no doubt come across as offensive and tick you off to no end; but I ask in all seriousness to understand your mindset more clearly, not to rile you up, so I hope I can get a straight answer. You say whatever it takes to ensure the safety of your people. So... Concentration camps for Arabs? Genocide?

Where do you draw the line that separates you from those that have wronged you? The tone that I'm getting says that the line is rather fine.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Leonidas

Thanks for the condisention. Fine, I respect your right to insult those who do not agree with you. While I myself would not have been able to reply to that post either, you don't need to insult others simply because you believe in something different.

I have been diplomatic towards other people in this thread, despite what I view as an appalling display of weakness and enabling.

Anyway, I see points on both sides, though, admitedly, more on my own. This seems to be going too far, though. I really don't think this is worth the lasting animosity that may come of it. I mean, jesus, its just oppinion!

__________________
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

"O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

Quest Shady

First Bommando- I have only seen Ben a few time on the TG server so really not my "Bud", I just can see his overall view a little more clearly then yours....

Tarpon- as I said I can understand trying to figure out the root of the problem. There is a big difference between doing something stupid like wearing a shirt through the the gang riddled part of town that says "I did your mom button" and a religion that at its core, believes that if you are an infidel you must die.

This does not refer to all Muslims by any Means but there are a huge amount of extremists that follow the Koran to the word.
If you would read the Koran, you will find out that Allah wants Muslims to kill the infidels (unbelievers) wherever they are found (Koran 9:5), and that peace will come only to those who submit to him (Koran 8:17, 48:29, and 65). The Koran also has Allah saying that unbelievers should be killed (Koran 2:191, 3:141, 4:104, 4:89, 8:12-16, 9:5, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52…), that Muslim apostates should be killed or chastised (Koran 2:39, 2:85, 3:85, 3:106, 4:89, 16:106, and 47:25-28), that the heads and fingers of unbelievers should be cut off (Koran 5:33, 8:12, and 47:4), and that Muslims should fight and humiliate Jews and Christians (Koran 5:18 and 9:29).

All off this is off the topic of this thread which was about the Cartoons...The CARTOONS can be directly compared to wearing that shirt through the gang riddled town. Not smart but still within their right to print them. But is the cause of the problem that they printed the cartoons or is it that their is such a lack of tolerance in these people that they had to riot, hurt and kill people over such a thing as a CARTOON.

Tarpon-"Also, remember that for all this talk of good and evil, all you're really referring to is subjective good and evil as defined by man. No one knows what true good and evil are, unless you're the Supreme Being(s). Hopefully no one here is that arrogant."

Nope not a supreme being...but I don't believe you have to be a supreme being to know what good and evil is... A Serial Killer kills peoples loved ones in a never ending string of violence = EVIL... A 40 year old man that likes to sexually molest little kids = EVIL.

I think the hard part for most people to understand and grasp is that EXTREMISTS believe to their very core that if you are not one of them you are an INFIDEL and you MUST DIE! It is hard for us to understand this because for most of us it is not in our nature to even consider this. Even when they say it directly to our face we do not accept and grasp the consequences.

But once again this post is about Cartoons...Silly to print them...Maybe. But it did prove the point of intolerance that is out there.

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Ben

The cartoon issue is such a farce from the beginning.

It is against MUSLIM law to draw an image of Mohammed/god.

MUSLIM LAW.

Now, maybe I am wrong but are the Danes that printed that cartoon of the Muslim faith?

If you, as a Christian, eat pork, am I as a Jew going to kill you for it?

Uhhhh, no?

Maybe, just freaking maybe, this is just another example of Muslim intollerance towards the world.

If a MUSLIM prints this cartoon, and It is against MUSLIM Faith to do so, and the penalty is death in ISLAM for this offence then they have the right to kill the offender. It is their belief system and they play by those rules. BUT, if it was not a muslim that printed those cartoons then i do not see a problem beyond insult.

Also, to answer the question about concentration camps for Arabs and my view on it....
hmmmmm, where to start...
NO!!!!!!!!!!

is that a good enough answer?

will i systematically destroy every Muslim, from baby on up in order to satisfy some Nazi blood lust that you might think I have?
ahhaahhaahahahhahah. GROW UP! Go out into the world and live a little, you really need some life experience. Nazi's killed millions because they were thugs, freaks and murderers. They killed for the sake of killing. They killed not only Jews, but they tried to exterminate the Jewish people simply because they are Jews. This = Evil

I would only kill a person if that person was a threat to myself, family, friend or any innocent.

If Israel was as brutal as the press made it out to be then Israel would be destroying any village that a suicide bomber comes from. They would round up his family and shoot them. They would carpet bomb gaza day and night.

Israel doesnt do that, and at times it is exactley Israel's MORAL response to terror that breeds more terror.

In my opinion when a terrorist is killed and then his followers have a funeral procession for him, brandishing weapons, firing into the air, chanting "Death to Israel, Death to America", this would be an ideal time to drop napalm. Lot's of napalm. This would get rid of hundreds, if not thousands of terrorists and their sympathizers.

Yep, sounds harsh. TOO BAD. I want to kill terrorists. plain and simple. Call it blood lust, call it harsh, call it what you will because i fight the good fight and you will never even come close to the level that i am on nor will you ever attempt to understand it. that is your loss and is quite sad.
Live with it.

__________________




A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

CingularDuality

Exactly.

This is the Sandbox. A place to exchange ideas and viewpoints. We're not on the streets of Gaza right now. We don't have to let our emotions take over. We can remain calm and make rational, respectful posts. We can most certainly refrain from personally attacking other TG members during this discussion.

If you're unable to do this, you'll be removed from the forums.

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SmokingTarpan

Heh, once again I seem to take a step towards becoming a feminine product. If you look at the situation more in depth, I don't think the difference is that great. Suppose that, while the actual cause for people sticking a gun in your face is one person who dislikes the button you wear, that person who rallies the gangs to harass you tells his people that they must do so because you aren't part of the gang. While people might pay little attention to the button on their own, they certainly have a vested loyalty in the gang concept, and it's easier to get things to do things under that banner. However, the underlying cause at the end of the day is still that button.

Similarly, it's been put forward that religion isn't the cause of the problems in the Middle East, but perhaps the most effective excuse/rallying tool. Maybe your citizens, poor and downtrodden, don't really like the idea of conquest to expand the borders of your state. However, if the people in power that desire conquest throw the concept of "God says so" at the masses, it's a lot easier to get things done. I mean, how can you argue with God's will, right? I think blaming the religion is the easy way out.

Evil, according to you and I. But only because society tells us so. I refer you to the ancient world: http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/classicalera.html

What you, I, and everyone else in the world perceives as evil is merely our personal beliefs shaped largely by the society in power around us. Might makes right; the people in power decide the laws. Back in ancient Rome, a man having sex with a slave boy was normal. In early America, owning black slaves was normal. Today, both of these things are evil- but only because those in charge say so.

Contrast this with true evil, that which is defined by divine law. None of us will be able to know what that is until we die (supposing there is a higher power). What if we stand before the Supreme Being(s) in judgement and are told, "No, I really wanted you to kill all people with blue eyes, they are evil. Now you get to go to Hell for disobeying me"? It's a concept that I don't truly expect people to be able to understand, for multiple reasons. Everyone is convinced that their religion is correct, their laws are correct, their definition of evil is correct. Unfortunately, when you stand before the Supreme Being(s), all of these man-made bets are off.

It was my understanding that Nazis killed millions because Hitler, in his desire for conquest (and in part to his insanity I'm sure), convinced his people that those they killed/imprisoned were evil. Unless you think that your standard German citizen would way up one day and say, "Hey, let's conquer France!" on their own. It always comes down to the people in power using whatever tool is at hand that most effectively convinces the populace to action. Much like what I think is going on in the Mid East, with leaders using religious differences as the rallying call.

And when I hear you make generalizations like, "I feel bad for the honest Arabs, but enough is enough" and "If we need to put Arabs under a watchful eye in order to protect our people, we should", well, those statements don't seem too far removed from past atrocities. Glad to hear that you're against camps and genocide, though.

In light of that, what do you propose as a solution? The fighting can't go on forever, or you just end up with everyone dead on both sides. How do you convince the other guy to put down their gun, talk, and accept some sort of conflict resolution? Does an outside arbiter have to step in, wall off both sides, and say, "This is how things are going to be?" Every time someone gets killed, it just convinces the victim's side to fight even more, so there has got to be a better way.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Ben

If a rabid dog with a foaming mouth is growling and barking at your child who is backed into a corner, what would you do?

would you talk the dog out of killing your child?

That is the situation you face with terrorists. they do not negotiate. They go for the throat and then hang your body as an example in the town square.

The solution starts with the other 900 million Arabs saying "enough is enough". then, maybe they can educate their children with facts rather then with hatred and ignorance. Maybe the next generation will learn to live with the rest of humanity.

But, at least with the "Palestinian" Arabs, with Hamas in power now, they have no hope of a future. They are being led by a very sick group of twisted killers that gain public support by feeding the poor and killing Jewish children.

Also, Hitler did not kill Jews in a desire to conquer, he killed Jews because he considered Jews to be an inferior race that went against his ideologies of ariyan perfection. Basically he hated Jews for no reason and wanted to wipe them out. In a nuttshell.

__________________




A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Root

On that we completely agree. Anyone is free to be a Muslim, but if you want to follow that religion in an area of the world that's predominantly white Chrisitan, you have to accept that you're effectively a guest in someone else's house. I've detailed the proper, mature, adult response to these cartoons already in this thread.

Hang on. You were asked if that was your position. That's totally different from accusing you of wanting a genocide. At no point in this forum have you been accused of being a nazi. On the specific issue of destroying Muslim babies, I hope you'll agree that it's small gap from baby to child? I say this because if in order to respond to this :

I would have to say that you're almost guaranteed to drop that napalm on children. What about the adults that are there? Are you saying that EVERY single person at a terrorists funeral is, by implication, a terrorist? Would you care to withdraw your opinion that napalm should be used at funerals of terrorists?

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Addict

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11239054/from/RS.2/

"U.S. Muslims react to furor with deft diplomacy
Muslim-Americans condemn cartoons — and violence that’s come with them"

Is it because the US Muslims have basically been exposed to the idea of free expression of ideas already? That they have become more desensitized to controversial ideas? Or are there just fewer of them here in the US, so not enough to riot? Maybe they have more information about what really happened(like the cartoons that were included in the presentation in the middle east that were not actually printed in the newspaper)? Does this seem a more reasonable way to response? Are these "real Muslims" because the are not trying to kill me?

SmokingTarpan

But terrorism is not an end, it is a tactic. Of course you can't negotiate with a tactic, that would be like trying to negotiate with the paintbrush instead of the painter. You don't negotiate with privates, you negotiate with generals.

In the case of the rabid dog, you have to kill the rabid dog. But what happens when the next rabid dog shows up? And the next? And the one after that? Rabid dogs are only a symptom of the real problem- a racoon with rabies that the neighborhood dogs keep trying to play with.

There's a reason for the conflict, and I'm willing to bet that it's not religion. Heh, who knows, maybe years ago an Israeli called an Arab's younger sister ugly, and it spiraled down from there. Purely hypothetical, by the way. I'm saying find the real problem, instead of just dealing with the symptoms (aka terrorists).

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Ben

thats nice but I am not a general, and I am not in the position to contact Nasrallah of the Hezbolla and invite him to sit with me and have a powwow(nor would i want to). I am and have been talking from my point of view. Of abilities that I have in this situation. It all comes down to an utter lack of education and tolerance. The radical muslim ideology is filled with fiction and hatred that is passed on to children at the religious schools the world over.
You want to find the racoon with the rabies? start by examining the madrasas/religious schools of Islam.


And Root, I would drop napalm on the funeral procession even if it means killing civillians. Dont play by a bonfire if you are afraid to get burned. Sounds harsh?
Well, that is what i would do in order to eliminate terrorists. If that offends your sense of morals then that is your opinion and I respect that.

__________________




A battle is dynamic, i.e constantly changing and evolving. Follow the strategy in place but never be afraid to improvise if the situation calls for it.
All I ask for is communication

Addict

I wonder if that is part of the reason for the moderated US muslim response. More education, more espousing of tolerance in popular culture. And I wonder what the Islamic religious schools in the US look like compared to the middle eastern ones...